15M Catamaran Capsize off Portugal

[Yihang]

Common mate. I meant the risk is probably less than getting killed in a vintage convertible without a roll cage. But I think non of us would think twice about doing that.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by smj

Your right, we should all stay at home, or if we actually want to take a risk should only be allowed to sail Westsail 32’s........never mind they can sink, stay at home. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

I'm making you look like James Dean here. Take the compliment.

[XL2]

Some like heavy wooden boats with full keels and cruising to them is the journey and others enjoy sailing speed where it's all about the destination....
To each their own.......
I like racing to the destination
I'll tell a story of my own flip sometime... Or you can google it

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by XL2

Some like heavy wooden boats with full keels and cruising to them is the journey and others enjoy sailing speed where it's all about the destination....
To each their own.......
I like racing to the destination
I'll tell a story of my own flip sometime... Or you can google it

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by XL2

Some like heavy wooden boats with full keels and cruising to them is the journey and others enjoy sailing speed where it's all about the destination....
To each their own.......
I like racing to the destination
I'll tell a story of my own flip sometime... Or you can google it

A Shockwave nice boat i has a kraken buccaneer hybrid for a couple years but sold it to get my dream boat. Most would say I'm nuts but I like my little 29 defender mono.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by smj

Yes the catamarans rig has more stress on it than the monohulls, and that’s why it’s designed with a stouter rig and stouter rigging.
The monohull heels but all the excess of wind on a performance catamaran isn’t absorbed by the rig, a percentage is put into power and speed.
I’m well aware of the need to vigilant on a performance catamaran as we own one and are very respectful of what may happen if not sailed correctly.
Now if you were to compare our 40’ performance cat and let’s say a Lagoon 400 of equal length you would see that we have about the same sail area and our boat weighs less than a quarter of the Lagoon, as someone said “basic physics” our boat is more prone to capsize. Not altogether true. The Lagoon has a hull to hull centerline beam of 16’ where ours is over 22’, much more stability. The Lagoons draft with minikeels is 4’ where ours with daggerboards is 1.5’, there draft makes it much easier for them to trip over their keel. Given these numbers our cat will be much less prone to capsize with boards up and the wider beam if we are both running under bare poles.
Now enter the sail area. If conservatively sailed we can probably make about the same speed as the Lagoon with just our 100% jib up verses their full 1000 sq feet of sail area, in this case I believe we would still be more stable. If we decide to sail with full sail up our speed would be much higher than the Lagoons but we would probably be less stable.
So to put it simply, it’s not the performance cat that capsizes it’s the captains choice that causes the capsize. Reminds me of that stupid saying, guns don’t kill, humans kill.

Agreed. You understand the risks involved in sailing a performance cat and show respect for them and that keeps you safe. But not all cat-cruisers are as careful and the penalty for that is sometimes much more sudden and severe than one might expect. I know that I sometimes get lazy when I’m fatigued and might put off that sail reduction hoping that the recent increase in wind speed will soon abate. But as you say, if you’re conservative and vigilant about getting caught with too much sail up, a performance cat can be both fun to sail and safe.

Ideally, you’re right that some of the increased forces in a wind gust or shift are used to make more speed rather than greater heeling forces. But if you’re trimmed for close hauled and get hit with a big gust from abeam it’s almost all going to be directed laterally at the rig. It’s that one time when the wind/waves do what you don’t expect they will that bites you.

I also understand and agree with you that your greater beam normally increases your stability and makes you much safer than a narrower cat. I’m not sure who said lower performance cats had greater stability but it wasnt me. BUT, there are additional dynamic stability I ssues involved when you increase your speed up into the teens and above. But as long as you manage this potential that your boat has as you obviously have done in the past, I’m sure all will continue to be good. If I had a cat I’d want it to be one like yours.

[Morph]

Originally Posted by PaulBartomioli

Reefing and Racing Catamaran are oxymorons. The pros sail in weather 99% of people would not even consider. And you do not address the issue of it being MUCH lighter in weight. No galley, no saloon, no heads. Stripped down is not even close.

Actually, not true. Having raced on 40' stripped out racing Cats with real pros, they have very strict rules on when to reef. In one instance, we were offshore, the true wind hit 18 knots and the skipper called for a reef in the main. I was surprised, however we did it and gained an extra 1-2 knots...

[PaulBartomioli]

Originally Posted by Morph

Actually, not true. Having raced on 40' stripped out racing Cats with real pros, they have very strict rules on when to reef. In one instance, we were offshore, the true wind hit 18 knots and the skipper called for a reef in the main. I was surprised, however we did it and gained an extra 1-2 knots...

fair point on reefing. But I stand by my point about the weather you race in versus the weather we sail in,

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by PaulBartomioli

fair point on reefing. But I stand by my point about the weather you race in versus the weather we sail in,

Racers and cruisers can sail in the same weather - racers because of schedule and cruisers through choice or bad luck.

It’s nice to have a boat that can handle any weather and a shame to have a boat that has to hide from poorer weather.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by XL2

Some like heavy wooden boats with full keels and cruising to them is the journey and others enjoy sailing speed where it's all about the destination....
To each their own.......
I like racing to the destination
I'll tell a story of my own flip sometime... Or you can google it

I raced on XL2 when Paul owned her 93-94, including a fun Brisbane-Southport and an epic delivery to Westernport Bay. Absolutely awesome boat and I’ve been thrilled to see her rejuvenation.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Is all thats required to capsize.

Fixed it for ya.

Spoken from the position of a true armchair sailor

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

... I also understand and agree with you that your greater beam normally increases your stability and makes you much safer than a narrower cat. I’m not sure who said lower performance cats had greater stability but it wasnt me. ...

Static stability calculations depend on displacement and beam - typically charter-type cats do well on this measure and better than performance cats. None of this matters if a hurricane comes through a mooring field.

With dynamic stability measures, performance cruising cats with modest rigs do best, and generally significantly better than charter-type cats. But if the rig is big, combined with light displacement, then that causes poor results and indicates that more care is needed with a higher performance racer/cruiser cat.

Note that all dynamic stability calculations are done on 100% of white sail area. So a large rig doesn’t really matter if you can happily sail with 2 reefs in the main. If the calculations are redone with the reefed sail area that probably brings the numbers back to safer territory.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Static stability calculations depend on displacement and beam - typically charter-type cats do well on this measure and better than performance cats. None of this matters if a hurricane comes through a mooring field.

With dynamic stability measures, performance cruising cats with modest rigs do best, and generally significantly better than charter-type cats. But if the rig is big, combined with light displacement, then that causes poor results and indicates that more care is needed with a higher performance racer/cruiser cat.

Note that all dynamic stability calculations are done on 100% of white sail area. So a large rig doesn’t really matter if you can happily sail with 2 reefs in the main. If the calculations are redone with the reefed sail area that probably brings the numbers back to safer territory.

But does anyone actually ever sail with 100% caculated sail area?

Myself i usually when no reefs are necessary am running full main and at least a 120% jib

[PaulBartomioli]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Racers and cruisers can sail in the same weather - racers because of schedule and cruisers through choice or bad luck.

It’s nice to have a boat that can handle any weather and a shame to have a boat that has to hide from poorer weather.

with all the technology available "bad luck" is a stretch. The crew on both boats is vastly different. I can walk any marina and get a ride on any boat needing crew. I would never be accepted for the crew on an ocean racer. My skill level would not stop it, my age would. Regarding the "choice" of a cruiser to risk their home and family is a pretty poor decision on any level. There are old sailors, there are bold sailors, there are no old bold sailors.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by newhaul

But does anyone actually ever sail with 100% caculated sail area?

Myself i usually when no reefs are necessary am running full main and at least a 120% jib

Full main and self tacking job is pretty common. That's what fxykty was referring to I'm sure.