15M Catamaran Capsize off Portugal

[smj]

Originally Posted by newhaul

I never said cats weren't any good i just said I don't want one I prefer my mono for the motion .

I have never owned a cat but I have owned a couple of trimerans one cruiser 2 decades ago and a Crowther racer/cruiser even posted picture of Crowther.

I just prefer the roll of a monohull.

I for one appreciate your choice of a monohull and have nothing against monohulls, just not my cup of tea. I have seen some god awful monohulls out there and I have also seen some catamarans that make me want to pick up an ice pick and gouge my eyes out, just to put me out of my misery!

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by PaulBartomioli

The most recent case you cite is 2 years old. Truthfully, I would rather be dismasted than capsized or knocked down

You must not be aware that being dismasted has lots of other associated complications. Sometimes the mast or boom even lands on your head, ouch, or sweeps people overboard! On the other hand, a knockdown in a monohull is almost always a very short term event with little to no damage. But maybe you’re just thinking of a knockdown in a cat which will almost always lead to a capsize?

[Old fella]

Originally Posted by newhaul

There are an average of 1500 containers lost at sea off of ships annually not to mention trees and logs .

Hell, 1500. Maybe the poles aren’t melting, sea levels are rising due to the water being displaced.

[smj]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

The point that you seem to want to argue against is that all cats are unsafe, but nobody is saying that. But in your eagerness to defend cats you shouldn’t try to minimize or obscure the fact that cats don’t heel easily like a mono hull and this causes much more stress on the rig if sail area isn’t proactively reduced as wind speed increases. With a monohull, if you get caught in a squall and almost get knocked down by a big gust, there’s usually no damage and as the boat heels, forces on the rig are reduced while it’s righting moment increases. Even if the mono is heeled to 90 degrees and beyond, it will self right. Granted it takes a very big gust to make a cat get knocked down, but unlike with a monohull that’s a one way ticket. If hit by a big gust on a cat that’s over canvassed, since the cat won’t heel, all of that excess energy must be absorbed by the rig, leading to more failures than on a monohull. Since this is a known factor I’m sure that cat rigs are increased in ruggedness compared to a similarly sized mono, but it’s only practical to overbuild up to a certain point so that threat of overstressing your cats rig is always there. In my mind this isn’t a disqualifying factor but it’s definitely something to keep in mind and be conservative about anytime the possibility of big gusts exists. Then, with greatly increased speeds, there are large dynamic forces that can change suddenly if you hit a wave wrong or your helmsman has a momentary lapse or your autopilot suddenly disconnects . That’s ok with a boat full of professional sailors with one constantly at the helm, but for mom and pop cruiser who tend to spend much of their time under shelter with the autopilot steering the boat, and may not be as on top of reducing sail area as they should be, im not sure a performance cat is such a good thing.

Yes the catamarans rig has more stress on it than the monohulls, and that’s why it’s designed with a stouter rig and stouter rigging.
The monohull heels but all the excess of wind on a performance catamaran isn’t absorbed by the rig, a percentage is put into power and speed.
I’m well aware of the need to vigilant on a performance catamaran as we own one and are very respectful of what may happen if not sailed correctly.
Now if you were to compare our 40’ performance cat and let’s say a Lagoon 400 of equal length you would see that we have about the same sail area and our boat weighs less than a quarter of the Lagoon, as someone said “basic physics” our boat is more prone to capsize. Not altogether true. The Lagoon has a hull to hull centerline beam of 16’ where ours is over 22’, much more stability. The Lagoons draft with minikeels is 4’ where ours with daggerboards is 1.5’, there draft makes it much easier for them to trip over their keel. Given these numbers our cat will be much less prone to capsize with boards up and the wider beam if we are both running under bare poles.
Now enter the sail area. If conservatively sailed we can probably make about the same speed as the Lagoon with just our 100% jib up verses their full 1000 sq feet of sail area, in this case I believe we would still be more stable. If we decide to sail with full sail up our speed would be much higher than the Lagoons but we would probably be less stable.
So to put it simply, it’s not the performance cat that capsizes it’s the captains choice that causes the capsize. Reminds me of that stupid saying, guns don’t kill, humans kill.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by django37

No, most cruising cats has double as much transverse stability as longitudinal stability. But a gust from behind, will be weakened by the boat speeding up - normally ... where a gust while sailing on a beam reach or higher will see the boat speeding up, and will increase the apparent wind

With our cat the TWA where apparent wind speed and true wind speed are equal is about 110 degrees. That’s a close reach - the apparent wind angle is less than 65 degrees.

The correct gust response for a fast cat is to bear away. The boat accelerates quickly to the gust and apparent wind speed decreases. Only if close hauled is the correct response to head up.

And note, only when close hauled or close reaching is releasing the sheets appropriate. On all other points of sail the main remains sheeted or is brought in, while the headsail sheet can be released. Releasing the main sheet while reaching and running actually increases the power generated by the main - the opposite of what you want in a gust.

This is contrary to what is generally recommended for charter-type cats and most monohulls.

[PaulBartomioli]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

You must not be aware that being dismasted has lots of other associated complications. Sometimes the mast or boom even lands on your head, ouch, or sweeps people overboard! On the other hand, a knockdown in a monohull is almost always a very short term event with little to no damage. But maybe you’re just thinking of a knockdown in a cat which will almost always lead to a capsize?

well, based on your response, you subscribe to urban legends, BTW, I survived a knockdown To this day I say I owe my life to NOT being tethered. I was tossed clear of the boat and the boom(ouch) and rigging (double ouch) missed me

[wingssail]

I think the catamaran defenders are being a little too defensive.

We are not saying that catamarans are bad (at least not me). What I am saying is that the danger of a capsize exists and it is basically up to the sailors to make sure it doesn't happen.

At least that seems to be true on a high performance cruising cat, which is the only kind of cat which appeals to me at all.

But that everpresent danger in the background scares me. Obviously the owners of these boats have the confidence that they can avoid it and are comfortable with whatever level of risk that they think remains.

That is fine. I just know that I'm sometimes not perfect and I just don't want that worry that sometime I'll miss a warning signal and not do the right thing. With my monohull if I can avoid running aground or sailing into a cyclone I think I'll be alright no matter what else happens.

[PaulBartomioli]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I think the catamaran defenders are being a little too defensive.

We are not saying that catamarans are bad (at least not me). What I am saying is that the danger of a capsize exists and it is basically up to the sailors to make sure it doesn't happen.

At least that seems to be true on a high performance cruising cat, which is the only kind of cat which appeals to me at all.

But that everpresent danger in the background scares me. Obviously the owners of these boats have the confidence that they can avoid it and are comfortable with whatever level of risk that they think remains.

That is fine. I just know that I'm sometimes not perfect and I just don't want that worry that sometime I'll miss a warning signal and not do the right thing. With my monohull if I can avoid running aground or sailing into a cyclone I think I'll be alright no matter what else happens.

are you as fearful of a knockdown on a monohull? "Generally no damage" does not warm the cockles of my heart.

My sailing mantra:

There are OLD sailors, there are BOLD sailors, there are NO OLD BOLD sailors.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Old fella

Hell, 1500. Maybe the poles aren’t melting, sea levels are rising due to the water being displaced.

Let's not go down the MMGWC trail and broken bridge shall we and 20% of the sea level change is attributed to satellite error and an additional 70% is due to this thing called isotastic adjustment so that leaves 10% to the combination of land based ice melt and aquifer displacement .

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by PaulBartomioli

are you as fearful of a knockdown on a monohull? "Generally no damage" does not warm the cockles of my heart.

My sailing mantra:

There are OLD sailors, there are BOLD sailors, there are NO OLD BOLD sailors.

I have no fear of a "knock down". I've been through a few on other people's boats, never a serious one on my own boat (not in 34 years on this boat ands many thousands of miles). None were dramatic in any way and other than a bent spinnaker pole, no damage occured in any of them.

Knock downs strike fear in the hearts of in-experienced sailors, its like the fear of boogie man getting you when you walk past a graveyard on a foggy night.

People have often said to them, "You gotta be worried about a knock down." Even though they don't quite know what a knock down is, just the words alone are enough. They are terrified.

It's a question I am often asked when a new cruiser finds out we have sailed around the world, "Have you ever been knocked down?" and they wait for my answer unsure if they want me to say "yes", confirming their fears, or hope I'll say "no", but they can't really believe that could be possible.

If I say "yes" then they would follow up with, "What happened?".

I could tell them, "Nothing happened. We shortened sail and kept on our way." It does no good, that fear is unquenchable. (maybe the same as my fear of capsize in a cat)

[Old fella]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Let's not go down the MMGWC trail and broken bridge shall we and 20% of the sea level change is attributed to satellite error and an additional 70% is due to this thing called isotastic adjustment so that leaves 10% to the combination of land based ice melt and aquifer displacement .

Yes. I must start keeping my sense of humour in check, cheers.

[smj]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I think the catamaran defenders are being a little too defensive.



We are not saying that catamarans are bad (at least not me). What I am saying is that the danger of a capsize exists and it is basically up to the sailors to make sure it doesn't happen.



At least that seems to be true on a high performance cruising cat, which is the only kind of cat which appeals to me at all.



But that everpresent danger in the background scares me. Obviously the owners of these boats have the confidence that they can avoid it and are comfortable with whatever level of risk that they think remains.



That is fine. I just know that I'm sometimes not perfect and I just don't want that worry that sometime I'll miss a warning signal and not do the right thing. With my monohull if I can avoid running aground or sailing into a cyclone I think I'll be alright no matter what else happens.

I don’t think I’m being defensive, just countering the usual nonsensical mistruths being passed on.
If you don’t feel comfortable with a performance cat then I can understand your not wanting one.

[Yihang]

The fundamental truth is you can engineer a keel to stop it from falling off, a hull from being holed and a mast from snapping but you cant engineer a perf cat from capsizing. The very nature of a perf cat is pushing those boundries. Those that sail one take that risk.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Yihang

The fundamental truth is you can engineer a keel to stop it from falling off, a hull from being holed and a mast from snapping but you cant engineer a perf cat from capsizing. The very nature of a perf cat is pushing those boundries. Those that sail one take that risk.

Your right, we should all stay at home, or if we actually want to take a risk should only be allowed to sail Westsail 32’s........never mind they can sink, stay at home. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Let's not go down the MMGWC trail..

Fair enough. Can we not go down the climate change denial trail then, OK?