You All Must Think I Am Crazy...

[Surveyor]

I would love to know how much that keel and board cost....

[boatman61]

This should give you an idea of what she'd cost in the UK....
Sigma Boats for sale UK, Sigma Used boat sales, Sigma Sailing Yachts For Sale Sigma 41 "Black Adder" - Apollo Duck

[DangerCell]

Boatman!!!
How are you man!
Again, I love the way you think!

Yeah, seems I like those Brit boats. What I liked about this one was its simplicity...looking at the steering system I think I started drooling...massive rudder stock, and like 4 easy to get at, simple, sturdy, moving parts....

As a green as I am, it just seemed nice and easy to keep an eye on everything on the boat, easy to keep it tip top.

Yeah, I am not sure what to think of that price in yer link...seems that one has some racing hardware, and some good electronics, but probly rode hard?
Assuming they are comparable though, they are about the same asking price considering Brit VAT.

What do you make of that mast? It is not straight, see the backward bow of it? The one in FL was the same backward curve, just not quite as pronounced.

Can you or anyone else tell me more about payload?

How do the cals, beneteaus, sigmas and the like handle when loaded down?
What are the effects of overloading?

Would I overload it? Not sure....but, probably...what are they designed to carry?

We will have dive gear and compressor plus the usual (jerry cans of fuel and water, lots of booze, and I imagine a couple months worth of food at times, etc). I imagine one could put a few thousand pounds in without much effort...

[boatman61]

Hey Danger... I'm good thanks.. you still in Paris..?
The mast bend is down to it being fractional rigged so when you crank on/off the backstay to change the mainsail shape/effect it sorta exaggerates things a bit... as you can see the backstay is the only one going to the top....not being a 'Racing man" I'm sure there's folks here who can explain you better.
She should carry a fair payload without affecting her performance to much, just make her a bit slower to power up...
I may be wrong with this but I think I'd reef a tad earlier than when in race mode as the extra wieght will stiffen her and the illusion could create a situation where your stressing out the mast and piling to much pressure on the mast step at the keel.
A friend of mine back in the late 80's had a Maxi.. again a keel stepped mast... he had to dig out the seating/bedding and replace it due to the loads fracturing it.. shattering in fact..
Mind... his rigging was always bar taut and he'd push her way to hard..
Bloody hard dirty job too...
Dunno about the bigger 'Bennie's'.. know nothing about 'Cals'
MarkJ's the man for the Big 'B's... but I do know the storage on the 321 and 331 was not that brilliant.
I reckon if you can work out your storage intelligently she'll be fine... balance is the key.. if you've got good storage midships great.. if not its gonna be fore and aft which is not good.. or even worse.. mostly aft.
Thats why my favourite ever cruising boat was a Westerly Longbow.. fantastic midship storage... looked like a VW camper with the boxey top but had a sweet underwater profile and went like a train....

My Apollo link boat would cost you $94000... VAT has been paid years ago so not re-claimable... lol.
She's raced in two Fastnets which is a seriously hard race, comparable to the Sydney-Hobart...

Well worth seriously considering the Sigma as its a very capable boat but... look carefully at your storage options and ability to balance the boat... thats very important.
A lot of cruisers go wrong there... cavernous stern lockers are all very well but if there's nothing in the middle and just a huge hole up forward..
Ok... next one's turn to waffle on....
Catchya lata mate..

[Weyalan]

Looks good to me. Don't worry too much about the centreboard - Check out the Adams 40' centreboard boats - they have a great reputation as bluewater cruisers - plenty have circumnavigated on them. My parents-in-law have lived aboard theirs for about 17 years.

[Jim Cate]

G'Day Crazy,

The tradition directed amongst us will never admit that such a boat can be a successful cruiser... but Ann and I cruised for 17 years in a 36' retired one-tonner of similar vintage. The advantages of great sailing performance (and especially in light air), very strong construction (designed to have the crap sailed out of them by testosterone-driven racers) and arguably good looks seemed to outweigh all the worries about "unsuitable" design. Having excellent deck gear (big winches, good blocks, etc) makes it relatively easy for short handed cruising crews to manage the big sail plans.

There are drawbacks, however... several you have already mentioned. One more is that the old IOR hull shapes are not well adapted to the cruising life. The pinched ends reduce internal volume and are often accompanied by considerable rocker in the hull shape, which in turn often leads to a tendency to hobby-horse in a short sea. They can also be squirrely if you drive them real hard downwind... but hey, we're cruisers so THAT never happens, does it? The pinched ends also tend to reduce stowage volumes (I think that you mentioned that earlier). We overcame the stowage issues by converting the "pilot berths" to "pile-it" berths, using a lot of milk crates and netting to contain stuff in harsh weather. Not ideal, but practical for us.

Tankage -- we had 45 USG fuel, and it was never a problem for us. The boats ability to sail well in light airs really helps (and for someone in a HC 36 to accuse others of motoring when the wind drops blows my mind). I didn't see specs for water tankage, but we had about 50 USG and managed to never run out on even long (3000+ mile) passages. Nowadays many use RO units to compensate for small tanks and lack of discipline, but they are dear and require considerable maintenance.

The pix don't show enough of the cockpit for me to evaluate it. The biggest thing is that it be comfortable for YOU! You will be spending heaps of time in it, and if you can't find a comfy spot or two life will not be good. A general thought: these hull shapes tend to be wet sailers, especially to windward, so the integrity of the dodger is important. We ended up having a hard dodger built for our boat and it really improved the comfort factor.

Now, as to the keel/centerboard and its safety or lack of it... I'd sure want to get the stability figures from the NA who designed it. There is no inherent problem with such designs, but the details are crucial. In one photo she looked as if she might be a bit tender (fairly big heel angle in what appeared to be moderate conditions) but it's hard to tell from photos. For us, excessive tenderness is not a good feature in a cruising boat... adds greatly to fatigue.

The ventilation issue could be solved in several ways, but adding big hatches would require careful structural analysis before sawing holes in the deck. But as mentioned in other posts, dorades, even pretty big ones, are very do-able without greatly compromising the deck... and they work under way which hatches usually don't.

I could babble on, but that's probably enough for now... all in all, there is no reason that she couldn't be a great cruiser!

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Church Point, NSW, Oz

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by DangerCell

We will have dive gear and compressor plus the usual (jerry cans of fuel and water, lots of booze, and I imagine a couple months worth of food at times, etc). ..

I am really loath to comment on DangerCell's idea as I see him fundamentally different from me: Love of older British type boats, dive compressor, user name. No offence intended just my impressions

What worries me is that its difficult to have an 'everything' boat: fast, light, huge load capacity, designed for old fashioned looks but modern attributes, no windows but lots of ventilation.

One would guess that multi year world tour with dive compressor means you will be spending a lot of time in dive locations of the tropical cruising routes of Caribbean, Pacific, north Indian, Med? And more or less excludes diving in the Antarctic, arctic, bearing sea and crab hunting in Alaska?

How much danger do you like and are injecting the extreme sport version of crusing?

The only extreme sport cruisers we have seen are the surfing dudes, normally in old crappy boats who sail into some way out of the way surfing locals and anchor off shore and drop the boards right into the waves. Maybe following the pro surfing events.

Many people with the extreme, danger, solo adventurer type feelings would have a far different perspective to mine.

Totally different to Boatman we have only 1 dorade and thats coming off as soon as I can find the bloody cap. Useless waste of deckspace and useless in adding air. Made more miserable in grabbing the lazy main preventer anytime I need the damn thing!

We would die in the tropics on the sort of boat your looking at.
Friends with a nice Hallberg Rassy have 6 or 8 fans on full blast the whole time... we just open one of your 13 hatches.
The Great Barrier Reef, Caribbean, Pacific etc have the most wonderful trade winds that forward facing hatches love. I can't tell you how hot the world can be in places where the diving is good!

We have met very few cruisers with a dive compressor.

If I was doing the full scuba stuff with compressor I would be looking at a boat like mine (or bigger) with the large lazarrette space for the compressor. I can't see how it oculd fit into an 80's IOR boat unless you rip out the interior.

Also I think important would be a watermaker. Dive gear needs a good bit of fresh water (yes spray bottles can ease water consumption a lot) if financially possible. The cost of a watermaker is high (to stupidly huge) and needs space, but also does it return your investment when selling the boat? Maybe only on a boat that others want to cruise long term.

The best boat we have seen for space is the Beneteau 473. Massive! then the 423 and then ther 393. I doubt you could fit a compressor in anything smaller.

I am still really unsure of too many things about you to make a good guess, and hope I don't sount patronising... but I think you may need a lot of deep research into what you really want out of your world cruise. I myself would go for the dive compressor and light, airy, modern boat that detractors slag off at. They are not GrandPa boats, but they are not extreme sportman boats either. But what is it you want? Extreme sport or diving, nature, sight seeing, cultural enlightenment?

I'm sure you will have a wonderful process researching the perfect boat for your voyage!!!!!!!!!!! We will all help you with (conflicting) advice!


Mark

[DangerCell]

LOL was wondering when you would show up!

Man, you crack me up...

Let me see if I can elaborate a bit on some missed assumptions, because I consider your advice very important.

Originally Posted by MarkJ

I am really loath to comment on DangerCell's idea as I see him fundamentally different from me: Love of older British type boats, dive compressor, user name. No offence intended just my impressions

None taken...I liked the british boats I have seen because they seem simple and rugged (sigma, westerly). Both seemed more modern than the rest we are eying (fin keel spade rudder light displacement). I am too green to even visualize what "older British type boats" are. Is an 86 Sigma one of these?

Originally Posted by MarkJ

What worries me is that its difficult to have an 'everything' boat: fast, light, huge load capacity, designed for old fashioned looks but modern attributes, no windows but lots of ventilation.

Ok it seems you assume I am stupid and know what I am doing....I am actually fairly clever and have no idea what I am doing.
ie: I want an everything boat as much as anyone but know that does not exist. I am just trying to figure out what is what so I can get what will work with least hassle.

I don't even know what a "huge load capacity" is? I may need it may not...but first WTF is it? Will carry the same stuff everyone else does but for the dive stuff...what I hope to find out from a guy like you is: How much do you carry? Does it go over the "limit" for your boat (which is what?), and if so what are the effects?

Not particularly fond of "old fashioned" looks...in fact I don't really give a flying rats arse about looks period...interested in utility (ease of use, safe, rugged). So actually leaning toward med. weight not "light". But again I have no idea what weight to lean toward, because I don't know what weight factors into the whole equation. If a light boat gives me safe rugged and easy, AND I can carry the dive stuff...then cool. If not.....well, this is the crap I am here to learn from you.

I want windows!!! I put the 2 bloody hatches down as negatives...

Originally Posted by MarkJ

One would guess that multi year world tour with dive compressor means you will be spending a lot of time in dive locations of the tropical cruising routes of Caribbean, Pacific, north Indian, Med? And more or less excludes diving in the Antarctic, arctic, bearing sea and crab hunting in Alaska?

Yes. And I know what tropical hot is first hand...hence my ventilation concerns...

Originally Posted by MarkJ

How much danger do you like and are injecting the extreme sport version of crusing?

No unnecc danger, thank you. I got the nickname as a kid and continue to live up to it, according to some. But in reality I am quite safety minded. Always have been: sure I was riding a wheelie across town on a dirt bike at the age of 12 when I could not even touch both feet to the ground on it, but only after I was quite skilled and as "crazy" as it may have looked I crashed MUCH less than most. In fact, I have 22 years and nearly a million motorcycle miles under my belt on the street and ZERO crashes...and I do not drive particularly slow. Some thought I was crazy to ride an old Enfield from Nepal to Kashmir through the himalayan hills recently....I say ********. Was perfectly safe. Your brain is your best safety equipment, provided you use it...works for me. I feel the nickname is hilariously ironic actually, so I use it for all things web...I mean, c'mon, I like to do adventurous stuff, but at the end of the day I am a researcher/science teacher, so I like to be smart about it at the same time

So no "extreme, danger, solo adventurer type feelings". No extreme sports. Just want to look at the pretty fishes and take their picture....want to see the reefs of the world before we kill em all. Yes, "diving, nature, sight seeing, cultural enlightenment?", you got it. And I want to live through it....comfortably, if possible.

You are right, not many have a compressor. It is a real pain unless you really will use it...we will. Can limit fresh water to crucial parts NP. And I think there are many many good diving places with fresh water and no compressor so not too worried there. Will address watermaker issue once I get a boat to attach it to sorted out.

One thing that may be throwing you in my choices of possible boats is the budget. It is limited...we need to be under 90k +/- after outfitting. So it is not that I am hot for old boats, it is not that I do not like a "modern" boat like yours...it is that I cannot afford it. My choices represent what I think is the closest we can come to meeting our needs/desires with what we have to work with. So the Beneteaus and the like within reach are generally pre 1990.

I am trying to weigh the pros and cons between the Hans Christian/Baba type heavy boats and the lighter more performance oriented stuff. If I load up a light performance cruiser with dive gear and the usual stuffs to cross oceans will it then handle like a heavy cruiser anyway? If so, then I would go with a slow but secure heavy cruiser to begin with...looks have little to do with it.

Originally Posted by MarkJ

I am still really unsure of too many things about you to make a good guess, and hope I don't sount patronising...

I'm sure you will have a wonderful process researching the perfect boat for your voyage!!!!!!!!!!! We will all help you with (conflicting) advice!


Mark

Well, hopefully this helps explain where I am coming from, so what say you?
Any other ideas?

Oh, and you only sound patronizing when you are LOL

Thanks guys....keep it coming.

Boatman...back in the states man, on the Cape of Cod, doing my teaching gig for the summer...really sorry I missed you in Portugal.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by DangerCell

I don't even know what a "huge load capacity" is? I may need it may not...but first WTF is it?

I want windows!!!

No unnecc danger, thank you.

OK that clears all that up!!

2380

Thats the answer.

Now, next question?





On every European boat, Aussie boats and I guess American boats will be a builders compliance plate. Ours is at the nav station. It shows the number of people recommended maximum to go on the boat in different catagories. One catagory is "A" thats far off shore. It then has the number of people. Ours is 8 people. Then recommended maximum load is 2380 kilograms.

Now I am not sure, but someone here may know better.
I think the number of peoples weight is added on top of the max load.
Theres just 2 of us, so we could add 6 x 100kg to the 2380 = 3,000kg load.

Break down the list of junk you put on:
Water, Fuel, sails, bedding, equipment, dinghy, provisions, batteries etc.

How does load affect performance? With only 2 of us, not 8, we are obviously not heavily loaded, but I have never noticed a difference in sailing perofmance before/after loading fuel and water.

I think we would put on an extra 1,000kgs with no worry.

How much would a dive compressor weigh. I would have thought not so much incl tanks and equipment. It would totally fill our big lazarette.

You would need to take full range of spares for the compressor, but the good news is theres dive shops splattered all over so replacement equipment is easy

Measurements : H 38cm x L 77cm x W 31cm
Weight : 40 KG
Noise Level : 87 dB - ISO 3746
Number of stages : 4
Number of cylinders : 4
Fuel : Unleaded petrol

They forgot to include the price! Maybe too many zeros LOL

[boatman61]

Mark... I've always assumed it was like lifts... people are part of the Maximum Load... 8 people could weigh 800kg or they could weigh 1200...
Guess your an Optimist and I'm a Pessimist......
But then I've a smaller allowance... so I gorra be...

Danger.. Ditto likewise mate.. but it'll happen next/some time I'm sure...

Oh... and when I was talking about loading I meant try and keep the most weight midships and work outwards fore and aft... remembering the anchor and quantity of chain right up front... location of fuel/water tanks etc...
On my Bene' the tanks were midships and as one emptied I'd list to Stbd... when I switched to the Port tank and the boat went back to near even keel it meant... time to fill up again..
There's a guy on another thread trying to figure how to move his chain midships for when he's passage making... all for better balance... doubt you need to be that extreme...
its not that hard, just needs a little thought and planning... from both of you...lol.
You know what they're like...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Mark... I've always assumed it was like lifts... people are part of the Maximum Load... 8 people could weigh 800kg or they could weigh 1200...
Guess your an Optimist and I'm a Pessimist......
But then I've a smaller allowance... so I gorra be...

Danger.. Ditto likewise mate.. but it'll happen next/some time I'm sure...

Oh... and when I was talking about loading I meant try and keep the most weight midships and work outwards fore and aft... remembering the anchor and quantity of chain right up front... location of fuel/water tanks etc...
On my Bene' the tanks were midships and as one emptied I'd list to Stbd... when I switched to the Port tank and the boat went back to near even keel it meant... time to fill up again..
There's a guy on another thread trying to figure how to move his chain midships for when he's passage making... all for better balance... doubt you need to be that extreme...
its not that hard, just needs a little thought and planning... from both of you...lol.
You know what they're like...

Opppss... got my tanks ass-about... should read empty Port list to Stbd and vickyverta... gonna have to sack the editor..

[DangerCell]

Yeah nice find on the compressor...I saw similar for about 3500 usd...

Got a link?

[DangerCell]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

OK that clears all that up!!

2380





They forgot to include the price! Maybe too many zeros LOL

Cool...thanks for the info.

eh, at 40kg i'll stash it in a hanging locker and just haul it out when we need it

[DangerCell]

I have never been aroused by a boat before now, but an almost heavy cruiser just blew my mind...a 42 passport...drooled all over it.

The 6'6" draft sort of sucks and it seems tight inside for its size, but what a machine. Bloody bulletproof....yet rumor has it they sail pretty damn well too...this boat any good?

Probably just out of reach budget wise, but if I sold everything I own...maybe.

couple concerns though...

Galvanized tanks:
Lil rust beginning in spots near one time drippy hose fittings. How long do they last? if it took 20+ years to get a lil rust, how much more time will they last? Will it go fast once it starts?
looks like it would be a royal clusterf*&% to remove em...like massive destruction to get at it.

Motor under sole:
Sort of hard to get at, and looks like the first thing to be submerged if any water was taken on.

Teak decks:
One deck prizm was very badly bedded, and it looks like crap and is leaking where surgery is being done to re-bed. Rest looks solid as a rock, but how much of a pain is it to maintain em?

What sort of choices are there as far as finish?
Most just let em go silver...but I have seen some that have what looks like a sort of opaque "pastel" tan/brownish finish. What the hell is that? Looks gorgeous whatever it is...especially in the cockpit bits.

Yeah, generally, any posted payload limits tend to be absolute. Ie: they tend to include the max recommended capacity for everything, including people...pets, UFO's, or plastic doggy poop...

Incidentally was reading a cruisers blog that had a "loaded" weight (water, fuel, gear, people) of 10,000 pounds more than empty (U.S. pounds)....200 gallons of water is 1600 what the hell else were they carrying for the other 8400?

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by DangerCell

Teak decks:
One deck prizm was very badly bedded, and it looks like crap and is leaking where surgery is being done to re-bed. Rest looks solid as a rock, but how much of a pain is it to maintain em?

Think of all those thousands of screws gong down into a blasa cored deck.
How many have to have leaked in the badly bedded area to have destroyed the balsa core?


Plastic is good. Plastic makes the boating world go round. Wood is wonderful whilst the boat is new.



Don't let me put you off, but make sure your surveyor looks closely at it. and the other concerns.