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Old 05-01-2022, 11:59   #1
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YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

Hi folks,
It's cold out and I'm bored on an unexpected week off from work so of course I start browsing YachtWorld because what else are you going to do in winter with nothing better to do?


A small game, a scavenger hunt if you will, to find the perfect boat for a hypothetical scenario. For no other reason than to engage in a discussion about choosing the right boat. Given this scenario, what would YOU choose and why would it be right for YOU personally. I'm assuming you're like me and pass the time by browsing YachtWorld to see what's out there, so lets see what you come up with.



Here's the scenario...


The world is closed during the pandemic, you've got nothing better to do for a year or two but go sailing. Since you can't stop for touring countries, you've decided to circumnavigate the globe (either solo or with a tiny/short handed crew). You've established a humanly obtainable capital budget for the boat and any upgrades (arbitrarily, lets say something like $250-500k to keep this realistic. We'll keep it to available used boats on YachtWorld, rule out project boats and definitely scratch anything like Hugo Boss or 100' trimarans etc. that normal people just can't buy.)



Your circumnavigation will be "nonstop" (or minimal stops only to restock food), you'll pass the 3 capes and no canals.




Ok, off you go. Scour YachtWorld to find the ideal boat.



For me, I limited my search to 43' +/- 3' because those are my limits to bring the boat home but feel free to go beyond that if that's too restrictive.



For me, I kept coming back to two different designs. Either Aluminum swing keel for fast, downwind handling. Or Steel, full keel, for comfort. I kept coming back to Alubat Ovni or Colin Archer designs. Each time I considered something plastic, I landed on Hans Christians... but I don't think I'd want to take on Cape Horn in an older plastic boat.



What would you choose? Did you find it on YachtWorld?
A faster, agile boat like an Aluminum swing keel boat?
A fat, slow, steel, boat for comfort?

If you choose plastic over metal, would you buy an older, solid/Heavy fiberglass boat (like a Hans Christian) or something newer, cored and AWB (Hallsberg Rassy, Naiad, Beneteau)?


Looking forward to responses.


Cheers,
Jordan, A wintering skipper.
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Old 05-01-2022, 14:03   #2
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

Sorry to disappoint, Jordan, but someone beat you to it:

Old-vs-New Style Cruisers
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...rs-259534.html

Guess those of us in the Northern Hemisphere are *all* bored with Winter!
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Old 05-01-2022, 14:24   #3
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

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Originally Posted by LittleWing77 View Post
Sorry to disappoint, Jordan, but someone beat you to it:

Old-vs-New Style Cruisers
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...rs-259534.html

Guess those of us in the Northern Hemisphere are *all* bored with Winter!

Ahhhhhh dammit. ;-) It looks like I'm not the only one that's bored.



Seriously though, I've seen plenty of the threads of the "What style of cruiser is best in the Caribbean" kind of threads. But the answer is always the same, "Just about any boat will do for the Caribbean and short-hop/one-passage cruising." They never seem to talk about really remote sailing, for long runs. I, personally, wouldn't trust one of the Benejeaneauhanse plastic boats around 3 capes non-stop. Maybe some would?


I was looking at Skip Novak's Pelagic, and some of the classics like Joshua, and seeing what their real-world counterparts would be. Boats meant to go places... not just cute condos on the water. It's one thing to be bashing for a weekend in a flat-bottomed beneteau, it's another to do it for 21,000nm. It's one thing to say, "Slow is comfortable, that's fine." but a whole other story when you reallly need to get moving through the south pacific because weather is coming. Hmmm... I still don't know which way I would go.
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Old 05-01-2022, 14:26   #4
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JordanH View Post

Here's the scenario...


The world is closed during the pandemic, .......Since you can't stop for touring countries, you've decided to circumnavigate the globe (either solo or with a tiny/short handed crew).

Your circumnavigation will be "nonstop" (or minimal stops only to restock food), you'll pass the 3 capes and no canals.

Which is it? Are you able to stop or aren't you? If the world is truly closed and you can't stop, then you will find it difficult to find a vessel with enough tonnage to be able to store and carry a years worth of provisions for the entire crew.

Obviously solar and wind for power and a water-maker. Provisioning is going to be the Achilles heal of this plan.

Honestly, there have been a few of these types of posts recently which really feel more like "What boat should I buy" threads thinly veiled as "Games" or "Flights of Fantasy".
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Old 05-01-2022, 15:33   #5
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JordanH View Post
what would YOU choose and why would it be right for YOU personally. I kept coming back to Alubat Ovni or Colin Archer designs. Each time I considered something plastic, I landed on Hans Christians... but I don't think I'd want to take on Cape Horn in an older plastic boat.

What would you choose? Did you find it on YachtWorld?
A faster, agile boat like an Aluminum swing keel boat?
A fat, slow, steel, boat for comfort?

If you choose plastic over metal, would you buy an older, solid/Heavy fiberglass boat
For what you describe massive amounts of stores would be required, and that automatically eliminates the vast majority of boats in the size range your talking about.
It's popular to bandy-about terms like "Colin Archer" in describing all kinds of double-ended heavy boats, but truth be known, the Tayana/Hans Christian, and a whole host of others have nothing in common with a "real" Colin Archer except a pointy stern.
Even the Atkins boats like the Ingrid/Alajuela/Westsails, are but distant cousins.
This boat on Yachtworld has been listed for quite some time, (couple years?) but it is based on a real Archer design, several hulls have been made, it's called a "CA40".
I wouldn't hesitate to take it anywhere, but like any boat a few things could be changed.
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/199...er-40-6925798/
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Old 05-01-2022, 16:56   #6
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

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Originally Posted by Shrew View Post
Which is it? Are you able to stop or aren't you? If the world is truly closed and you can't stop, then you will find it difficult to find a vessel with enough tonnage to be able to store and carry a years worth of provisions for the entire crew.

Obviously solar and wind for power and a water-maker. Provisioning is going to be the Achilles heal of this plan.

You got caught up in some cynical thinking, but you started thinking in the right way. Yes, energy and water are probably feasible, provisioning will be difficult. How would YOU solve those problems?



Since it's a thought experiment, you can set your own guidelines on stops or no stops. I was thinking of the difficulties of provisioning as well and comparing the solo-nonstop circumnavigations of the Golden Globe sailors vs the Chichester voyage with one provisioning stop. If the world is in lockdown, there is generally SOME place to stop so I don't see it as an unreasonable expectation that you'd be able to stop SOME place, but that I wouldn't count on it.



As for being "thinly veiled boat buying", no, I think you misunderstand my situation. I'm analytical and bored... I haven't had a vacation since 2017 and a sum total of 6 days off since then - I ended up with some 3 weeks off at year end and find myself with nothing to do but day dream. I sail my little contessa 26 when I can in the summer, but have no time for a circumnavigation - although I wish I could. However, I'm analytical and I like to see how OTHER people solve problems. (For example, I just listened to a podcast where the sailors debated whether it was safer to have the halyards left at the mast or run back to the cockpit. Arguments were that it was simpler, less things to break/go wrong vs the risks of leaving the cockpit. All sailors have varied opinions and I like to hear them.) Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Feel free to play along. I love boats, if you find something interesting I haven't seen before, I'd like to see it and hear why you chose it.


Feel free to play along. Or not. How would you get sail around the world? Fat and slow? Fast and agile? Do you trade of robustness for speed or fall someplace in the middle?


J.
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Old 05-01-2022, 16:56   #7
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/199...ntent=12162021. this boat has it all and with a little pre trip maintenance you would be ready. I would add 10 lithium batteries and at least that many solar panels for when the fuel runs out.
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Old 05-01-2022, 17:20   #8
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

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Originally Posted by Bowdrie View Post
For what you describe massive amounts of stores would be required, and that automatically eliminates the vast majority of boats in the size range your talking about.
It's popular to bandy-about terms like "Colin Archer" in describing all kinds of double-ended heavy boats, but truth be known, the Tayana/Hans Christian, and a whole host of others have nothing in common with a "real" Colin Archer except a pointy stern.
Even the Atkins boats like the Ingrid/Alajuela/Westsails, are but distant cousins.
This boat on Yachtworld has been listed for quite some time, (couple years?) but it is based on a real Archer design, several hulls have been made, it's called a "CA40".
I wouldn't hesitate to take it anywhere, but like any boat a few things could be changed.
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/199...er-40-6925798/

lol, that is definitely one I've seen listed. I named Colin Archer boats because of watching some Tom Cunliffe youtube videos and then having seen some, undoubtedly, sturdy steel versions listed. To my eye, they look very robust but I wonder if I would be frustrated with slow performance.


I used to race (crew) on a Farr 30... it was fast, agile, and great for a night out, but I hated every slam it made through short choppy weather over long races. I find the same on my friends' Beneteau's. My own Contessa 26 is really nice through the same chop... but it isn't exactly fast. I have this back & forth over whether I'd rather be comfortable for fast.


I used Ovni as the other side of the coin because I've been watching videos with the Ovni 400 and the preceding 435 and 43. Like a poor man's version of my dream Garcia 45.


Then I picture the Beneteau's I've been on and think, "Nope, would never endeavour a circumnavigation on those." Nice boats for the lake or charter, but the storage, robustness and so-on of the Hans Christians just seems to put them to shame. I once had a tour of a Westsail 32 and know a man and his wife that swore by their previous Westsail 32 after their transat trip. But I think maybe a little on the small side for a year's travel.


For my money, I think I'd go Aluminum or Steel.


Thanks for a link to that CA40. It's gorgeous and I'll drool over it this evening. Man... I love that wood but it must be a full time job keeping that up to scratch.
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Old 05-01-2022, 17:31   #9
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

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Originally Posted by wtmf View Post
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/199...ntent=12162021. this boat has it all and with a little pre trip maintenance you would be ready. I would add 10 lithium batteries and at least that many solar panels for when the fuel runs out.

That's a beauty! I love it. lol, the wife says, "75'? That's too much boat for us!" I think it's gorgeous, but not sure I could handle that myself and it definitely won't fit in our slip. lol


Edit: Would you take it around the 3 capes?
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Old 05-01-2022, 18:07   #10
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

perfect boat = one that is paid for !!
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Old 05-01-2022, 19:42   #11
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

Perfect boat = paid for.

We bought our 1987 44’ steel cutter around 2010 for $93,000 with a new engine and sails. We have spent a bunch on maintenance and upgrades. Did some replating, new heads, bow sprit, port lights, etc, etc. Just bought a new main. We have sailed her from Delaware, around Newfoundland, spent some years in Caribbean, and are now back in Delaware. I did a 7 day single handed passage and in 2020 my Wife and I did 1,500nm non-stop Dominica to Beaufort, NC. At this point she is our principal home.

We bought her with the idea that she would be a “bug out boat” while still working that would also be a fun asset for retirement. She has done well in this regard.

We were in Antigua when the Covid hit and I made it to Dominica just before they closed borders. We were more or less confined to Dominica for months, not allowed off the boat for weeks at a time. So our actual usage has paralleled your brief moderately well.

She is a very simple boat, all necessary systems but not much else. So not a lot to break. Kerosene stove means we can carry a long supply of cooking fuel, no need to fuss with propane refills. 200 gallons of fuel gives us good range under power. 200 gallons of water, and we are pretty stingy with water, means long times between fill ups. 600 watts solar plus wind so we get by with only a Honda generator the few times we need it. The heavy long keel means she does not roll much at anchor, less than most monos, so that is a comfort factor.

Long keel, barn door, heavy, SAD of about 16, not a rocket ship but comfortable and cozy. When confined to a boat for a long time comfort gets to be a big deal. Speed is great but after some months the thrill is gone and you just want peace and stability. You don’t need a lot to be happy but some little things can really annoy.

As I type it is in the mid 30’s outside but the Espar is clicking away and we are nice and warm. We have never winterized the boat, but we have been frozen in briefly. I have seen single digit temps. No fear of ice damage to the hull, even with flows scraping by. Just keep the engine compartment above freezing. We get annoying condensation on the hatches, and if cold enough ice on the inside. But with a steel hull we have zero deck leaks, very dry inside.

Oh, and a really good mattress. We have 4 inches of foam topped with 2 inches of memory foam. Our most comfortable mattress ever.

Safety is often a big concern. What causes most sinkings/abandonments/rescues. I know of no good list but my observation is, in no particular order.
Failing keel.
Failing rudder.
Holing.
Lost rig.
Fire.

She has an old school cutter rig. Lots of wires holding it up. The keel (1/4”) is welded to the hull (3/16”) and it is not going to separate. The hull will not hole easily. The rudder is stoutly mounted and supported. She has a wheel but also an axillary tiller for the Aries wind vane. If the steering failed I could cut it free and use the tiller. So the construction mitigates if not eliminates most of the serious safety concerns. Fire remains, and we carry 5 extinguishers. I may need to do some more along that line.

Provisions. We are 40,000 pounds, a big hole in the water. 6-1/2’ draft, we sit deep. But relatively low freeboard and windage and still good headroom because you sit IN the water,deep. Tanks are in the keel. That a lot of weight low down. Bilges are deep. I can fit in the saloon bilges, with 6” more under me. All of our tanks and substantial stores are below the sole. That means 100% of above sole space is usable for storage. Under the V berth, under the settees, in the back rests, in the quarter berth cabin, under the main cabin mattress. We can easily provision for months while still carrying large quantities of tools and spares. An embarrassing amount really. Its a sickness.

So this is how we have approached your design brief, this is OUR solution. Surely not everyones, thats OK. Just our approach.

Here is a picture.
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Old 05-01-2022, 20:17   #12
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

Re: the Colin Archer

Beautiful and capable boat.

But……

Spoken by a man who is a slave to rust, all that bright work!!!! You could never keep it up while constantly using the boat.

I have noticed that there are pretty boats, and there are hard used boats. The ones being actively cruised often show it. Right now our boat is in wonderful shape, except for the decks which badly need a coat of paint. So it LOOKS really rough with lots of rust stains from all the cutting and welding I did replacing ports and the port hole areas are painted with a different color epoxy.

I will get to it someday, it is just cosmetic.

Remember that old song….

If You Wanna Be Happy
Jimmy Soul
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you
A pretty woman makes her husband look small
And very often causes his downfall
As soon as he married her and then she starts
To do the things that will break his heart
But if you make an ugly woman your wife
A-you'll be happy for the rest of your life
An ug-a-ly woman cooks meals on time
And she'll always give you peace of mind
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you
Don't let your friends say you have no taste
Go ahead and marry anyway
Though her face is ugly, her eyes don't match
Take it from me, she's a better catch
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you
Say man!
Hey baby!
I saw your wife the other day!
Yeah?
Yeah, an' she's ugly!
Yeah, she's ugly, but she sure can cook, baby!
Yeah, alright!
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you
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Old 05-01-2022, 21:07   #13
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

The above music must have been written in "C-flat". Ho, ho ho.

But back to the original question re choosing the appropriate boat, surely the number of folks on board is highly relevant. Single handed? Couple? Family?
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Old 05-01-2022, 22:04   #14
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

for me it would be a GRP boat with the strength of steel , a fin keel with the structural integrity of a long keel , 8 foot headroom, an walk around engine room ,with a diesel that had 50,000 hour service intervals and consumed 2litres/hour , a full pilothouse that looked aesthetically perfect , big windows that never failed , a faultless furling system and a good looking sailing mad wife. The boat is possibly the easiest thing to find
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Old 06-01-2022, 06:21   #15
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Re: YachtWorld Scavenger Hunt. Fast and agile or fat and comfortable?

Yeah, what is not noted here is the " homebuilt" boat.

Back when I was still in High School, from out of nowhere, I was given a Bruce Roberts " Build your own boat" catalog. I lived 400 miles from the nearest ocean and didn't know a ketch from a stick in the ground.

Nonetheless, I leafed thru' this catalog, each page showing the next size up, until I came to the BR 38 ketch. For reasons I am unable to explain, I fell in love with this boat, no wait, I was gaga over this boat, head over heels. I didn't know the first thing about sailing, but this boat....I had to have !!!

I couldn't buy one off course, as I had no money, so I built it. It was my dream boat and became my home for the next 15 years or so.
I was literally living the dream life !!

That....to me....is the perfect boat. A vessel that can light your fire like no other can !!!
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