Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[JPA Cate]

Hey!!! Boatie, what's with the new avatar? yearning for a delivery to NZ, are you?

A.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Hey!!! Boatie, what's with the new avatar? yearning for a delivery to NZ, are you?

A.

Symbolism Ann Symbolism.
A Wolf amongst Sheep.

[Duplexity]

..Agree with Minaret and like that you sharing your experiences. I believe the mentioned failures (of different yachts) are either due to improper assembly or actual design faults. I would say that certainly, most yacht owners who bought new boats have experiences of failures due to improper installation (I have heard several even from premium brands).

But to get back to the original thread so surely many errors are caused by the inability to cope with tough conditions due to simple construction, not at least when it comes to the hull, keel and rig. I guess that most want a boat that sails fast. It also has been obvious to boat manufacturers and therefore the trend has been towards "performance cruiser" but the big brands like Bavaria, Jeanneau, Oceanis (Beneteau) and Dufour are still only “cruisers”. They have only gone half way and designed with some larger sails, flat-bottomed hull shapes like a “performer” and sometimes even a little deeper keel. There is still much lacking in design and equipment and therefore "performance cruisers" are still 10-30% faster than those cruisers. The simple explanation why not sophisticated constructions would be to keep costs down (which also is visible at the price tag in comparison).

Coming back to failures happening at Dufour Grand Large 500 and construction of a pure cruiser... If not cost, what should be reason for a 50 ft design to put mast on deck instead of keel-stepped? Or why not vacuum infused lamination (=light and strong) of hull and stronger/stiffer grid at bottom and lamination of bulkheads? Hand lamination of Dufour GL510 results in 17 tn displacement for 14.7 meter yacht where of only 4 tn at keel (cast iron only) but at same time only 100 m2 sails. A heavy ship with mast on the deck with a design that is not strong enough flex in the hull when harsh conditions and then start the problems... And then it doesn’t matter whether short or long keel... Or? Possibly, it might be that a heavy hand laminated long keel boat is more stable in its construction, but most of today demanding a fast boat and then buy cruisers from major shipyards which today have hull shape similar performance yachts but is to simple in its construction and not that fast as the advertising claims...
// duplexity-elan450.com

[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

50 kts winds on occasion are the norm rather than exception. One place it's called a mistral, next one a papegayo etc. and every cruiser should deal with those uneventful.

50K to be the norm on the Mistral on the sailing season? Hardly the case and that one I know well but we can always resource to wikipedia:

"The mistral (Catalan: Mestral, Greek: Μαΐστρος) is a strong, cold, northwesterly wind that blows from southern France into the Gulf of Lion in the northern Mediterranean, with sustained winds often exceeding forty kilometers per hour (21.4nm), sometimes reaching one hundred kilometers per hour (54.4K).

It is most common in the winter and spring, and strongest in the transition between the two seasons.Periods of the wind exceeding thirty kilometers an hour (16.2K) for more than sixty-five hours have been reported...

The summer mistral, unlike the others, is created by purely local conditions. It usually happens in July, and only in the valley of the Rhone and on the coast of Provence. I... This wind is frequently cancelled out close to the coast by the breezes from the sea. It does not blow for more than a single day, but it is feared in Provence, because it dries the vegetation and it can spread forest fires."

Strongest in February, Mars, not yet the sailing season that starts in May and on the summer very rarely blows over 30k and at that time of the year it does not last long, not given time for a really nasty sea to be created.

Mass production main market boats have no problem with the Mistral providing they are well sailed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGIUy0mp0JU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5tHO_NrnQo

Regarding papegayo never heard about it. Searched the Google without finding any hits. Anyway those are coastal winds and you can be surprised by one with 30K that can appear almost out of nowhere but that is not the case with one with 50 or 60K. Those are more easier to forecast and warnings are given regarding them.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Duplexity

... There is still much lacking in design and equipment and therefore "performance cruisers" are still 10-30% faster than those cruisers. The simple explanation why not sophisticated constructions would be to keep costs down (which also is visible at the price tag in comparison).

Coming back to failures happening at Dufour Grand Large 500 and construction of a pure cruiser... If not cost, what should be reason for a 50 ft design to put mast on deck instead of keel-stepped? Or why not vacuum infused lamination (=light and strong) of hull and stronger/stiffer grid at bottom and lamination of bulkheads? Hand lamination of Dufour GL510 results in 17 tn displacement for 14.7 meter yacht where of only 4 tn at keel (cast iron only) but at same time only 100 m2 sails. A heavy ship with mast on the deck with a design that is not strong enough flex in the hull when harsh conditions and then start the problems... And then it doesn’t matter whether short or long keel... Or? Possibly, it might be that a heavy hand laminated long keel boat is more stable in its construction, but most of today demanding a fast boat and then buy cruisers from major shipyards which today have hull shape similar performance yachts but is to simple in its construction and not that fast as the advertising claims...
// duplexity-elan450.com

And also a lot of misinformation around. For instance if you ask to a sailor what is the stronger boat and the more adequate for blue-water sailing, if the Dufour 45 performance or the Dufour 460 Grand Large 90% will say that the Grand Large (that means bluewater) is stronger since it is designed for cruising while the other is designed for cruising and racing.

The truth is that the Dufour 45 is much more used (and designed) for cruising than for racing, it has a great cruising interior, it is built in a much more expensive way, using better materials and obviously it is much more expensive....and stronger.

Probably they sell 30 460 for each Dufour 45 and they are interested in maintaining that ambiguity since it is good to sell boats. I bet most would think that only a fool would buy a 45 instead of a 460, since the 460 seems the same with just a bigger interior and more interior volume.



Off course, the Dufour 45 has a steeped mast while the 460 has it over the deck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcHmwK0CJEc

And I am not saying that unless one is interested in sailing the boat extensively, particularly offshore, that the 45 performance is a better boat for someone.

Probably for most, that will use not sail so much the boat, but stay many time on anchor and doing small passages between nice coves, the 460 makes a lot more sense, with its bigger interior and inferior price.

For me the only problem is the misinformation namely the Grand Large denomination given to the less seaworthy boat. I guess that the few that will buy a Dufour from the performance series know that the boat is more seaworthy than the Grand Large (typically they are more experienced sailors) but the ones that will buy the Grand Large are probably convinced otherwise and with a certain reason since the name is misleading.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Run down on a Northerly that swings East then cross at the narrowest point and pick up Easterlies swinging S'easterly then South.. for a delivery that's a milk run.. maybe not for a cruiser..
Or is crossing the ITCZ in the Pacific, Panama to Oz somehow different in your mind.. apart from lots off motoring at the start.

Or is crossing the Pacific ITCZ from Panama towards Oz somehow different?

I think you have somehow answered my question, and yours.

If you cross at the narrowest point, you end up in Belem. Sure this is Brazil allright, but is it where you were going?

We have crossed this one on our way up and the Pacific one on our way down.

Cheers,
b.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Or is crossing the Pacific ITCZ from Panama towards Oz somehow different?

I think you have somehow answered my question, and yours.

If you cross at the narrowest point, you end up in Belem. Sure this is Brazil allright, but is it where you were going?

We have crossed this one on our way up and the Pacific one on our way down.

Cheers,
b.

Hi Barnakiel.. no disrespect but I think you know well what I meant.. for example from December to May Belem is more or less smack in the middle of the ICTZ then it moves North of the Delta for the next 6 months.. running down from Cape Verdes one crosses between 020 and 030W.. which ever suits best near a straight shot S working the winds till a couple of hundred miles off Recife.. then parallel the coast to your destination..
The latter half of the year July - November is when one has to really work the winds as they are more on the nose between 005Nth and 005Sth.. but even then its different year to year..

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Hi Barnakiel.. no disrespect but I think you know well what I meant.. for example from December to May Belem is more or less smack in the middle of the ICTZ then it moves North of the Delta for the next 6 months.. running down from Cape Verdes one crosses between 020 and 030W.. which ever suits best near a straight shot S working the winds till a couple of hundred miles off Recife.. then parallel the coast to your destination..
The latter half of the year July - November is when one has to really work the winds as they are more on the nose between 005Nth and 005Sth.. but even then its different year to year..

No disrespect but did not you say 'the narrowest part'? The zone is widest at Africa and narrowest at America for most of the year. BTW, July till November you are sailing S while the zone is sailing ... also S which adds to the blues. I would donkey it. An iron donkey please, and some diesel too.

You are right about 20 - 30: the more E the wider the zone and the more clash in it but also the easier onward route once on the other side. It is easier more to the W but then it may be a struggle once thru. 25 and thereabouts is the safest guess if navigating without metservice onboard. All my clients sailing say Cape Town to the Northern Hemisphere opt for very E'ly tracks, off course big boats with outstanding powering range. Only limited lightening damages now and then. No clients on the opposite track, apparently, too easy ;-)

Off course flowers too and hugs! We are still in Canary Islands till Zika wipes out the populations of cruisers in the West Indies. Should you be headed our way, let us know!

Cheers,
b.

[robert sailor]

Zika is like a lot of scare mongering, very over blown unless you are pregnant.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

No disrespect but did not you say 'the narrowest part'? The zone is widest at Africa and narrowest at America for most of the year. BTW, July till November you are sailing S while the zone is sailing ... also S which adds to the blues. I would donkey it. An iron donkey please, and some diesel too.

You are right about 20 - 30: the more E the wider the zone and the more clash in it but also the easier onward route once on the other side. It is easier more to the W but then it may be a struggle once thru. 25 and thereabouts is the safest guess if navigating without metservice onboard. All my clients sailing say Cape Town to the Northern Hemisphere opt for very E'ly tracks, off course big boats with outstanding powering range. Only limited lightening damages now and then. No clients on the opposite track, apparently, too easy ;-)

Off course flowers too and hugs! We are still in Canary Islands till Zika wipes out the populations of cruisers in the West Indies. Should you be headed our way, let us know!

Cheers,
b.

I do all my prep work with Royal Navy Ships Boat Charts for the World (1975 Edition) 2 for the Atlantic N&S, same for the Pacific, Indian Ocean etc..
These I use for passage planning.. they show the ICTZ as a wide mouth from Gambia down to Liberia on the African side tapering down till it reaches around 025W then widening again to encompass the S American side from Sao Luis to the S up to a few degrees N of French Guiana..
Each Chart represents 12mths so covers the area of variation of the seasons with currents and winds noted for seasons/regions on the map itself and more info on the reverse..
I could have been clever and said I meant the narrowest part of the Atlantic between the two continents.. but I'm not that smart..
Next time I'll try not to generalise.. but it won't be easy for someone who's never set a way point (apart from a destination) in his life.. but I'll try

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

50K to be the norm on the Mistral on the sailing season? Hardly the case and that one I know well but we can always resource to wikipedia:

"The mistral (Catalan: Mestral, Greek: Μαΐστρος) is a strong, cold, northwesterly wind that blows from southern France into the Gulf of Lion in the northern Mediterranean, with sustained winds often exceeding forty kilometers per hour (21.4nm), sometimes reaching one hundred kilometers per hour (54.4K).

It is most common in the winter and spring, and strongest in the transition between the two seasons.Periods of the wind exceeding thirty kilometers an hour (16.2K) for more than sixty-five hours have been reported...

The summer mistral, unlike the others, is created by purely local conditions. It usually happens in July, and only in the valley of the Rhone and on the coast of Provence. I... This wind is frequently cancelled out close to the coast by the breezes from the sea. It does not blow for more than a single day, but it is feared in Provence, because it dries the vegetation and it can spread forest fires."

Strongest in February, Mars, not yet the sailing season that starts in May and on the summer very rarely blows over 30k and at that time of the year it does not last long, not given time for a really nasty sea to be created.

Mass production main market boats have no problem with the Mistral providing they are well sailed:

Regarding papegayo never heard about it. Searched the Google without finding any hits. Anyway those are coastal winds and you can be surprised by one with 30K that can appear almost out of nowhere but that is not the case with one with 50 or 60K. Those are more easier to forecast and warnings are given regarding them.

Good lord, it's obvious you know absolutely nothing about cruising outside your own small area.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papagayo_wind

[Sandero]

Originally Posted by minaret

Good lord, it's obvious you know absolutely nothing about cruising outside your own small area.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papagayo_wind

Most sailors don't know much about areas they don't sail in... This is painfully obvious and proves nothing.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Sandero

Most sailors don't know much about areas they don't sail in... This is painfully obvious and proves nothing.

I don't find that to be the case at all. Most serious cruisers I meet are remarkably well versed on many areas they have never been to. Certainly I've never sailed in a Papagayo, but I know what one is. More to the point, making Jedi's post about how every area has a name for their wind into something about the Mistral only is silly. Assuming forecasting is good in remote areas like that is madness. So is assuming you will never be caught out in anything above 40 knots. What about katabatics? Only someone who doesn't actually cruise much could think this was even possible.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Sandero

Most sailors don't know much about areas they don't sail in... This is painfully obvious and proves nothing.

Could explain why the rescue services get called out so often.. many don't even know about the area's they sail in..

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I do all my prep work with Royal Navy Ships Boat Charts for the World (1975 Edition) 2 for the Atlantic N&S, same for the Pacific, Indian Ocean etc..
These I use for passage planning.. they show the ICTZ as a wide mouth from Gambia down to Liberia on the African side tapering down till it reaches around 025W then widening again to encompass the S American side from Sao Luis to the S up to a few degrees N of French Guiana..
Each Chart represents 12mths so covers the area of variation of the seasons with currents and winds noted for seasons/regions on the map itself and more info on the reverse..
I could have been clever and said I meant the narrowest part of the Atlantic between the two continents.. but I'm not that smart..
Next time I'll try not to generalise.. but it won't be easy for someone who's never set a way point (apart from a destination) in his life.. but I'll try

Yes.

Boat Charts may be the same source as BA NP 136 (Ocean Passages...) that we use. They are "wrong" in at least two aspects - once where they depict the Atlantic ITCZ at American coast and again where they show the Pacific ITCZ situation beyond Bora.

In the Atlantic, watching the ITCZ from the satellite, only hardly ever the shape is wide-narrow-wide. Most of the time it is wide-narrower-narrowest. I think the narrows at the center are a feature common at the turning points - when the zone is most N and S respectively July January. Possibly the other interpretation comes from the fact that coasts are generally lighter.

I envy you the Boat Charts. We do not have them and they are very high on my 'to get' list.

No waypoints in life is 100% OK with me. I think I used to make them while young but I can't remember why.

Cheers,
b.