Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Ribbit

A very sobering read.

.....

PS. By the way Polux, you can't have it both ways. You praise fast crossings and the suitability of these boats for it on the one hand, and don't acknowledge that fast routes usually involve storm conditions on the other, then try to let these so called boat builders and Naval Architects off the hook by claiming they "aren't supposed to be sailing in 60 knot winds", which is what you must expect if you sail the fast routes.
....
In fact I now consider your Partisan bias and prejudices to be so extreme (to the point you seem prepared excuse anything, no matter how inexcusable), that you have now earned a place on my ignore list.

Good riddance.

In many threads I have always said that main market mass production boats are not designed for extreme conditions and even if many are offshore boats they should be used at that only on the right season where high winds are highly improbable.

Mark, that have circumnavigated with a Beneteau 373, has being saying the same on many threads and also that is possible to circumnavigate out of extreme weather if the right time for passages is chosen. The many that use and used these boats to circumnavigate do that taking in consideration the right seasons for each passage and very few have experienced problems.

For sailing fast you don't need storm conditions. Many new designs can go fast downwind at over 16K and as you should now on the trade winds that is probably on the low side, being very usual 20K and sometimes 30K and a bit over.

Not much more if you do the passage at the right time and certainly not winds over 50K.

Another confusion regards the boats that I had posted previously regarding sailing fast on passage. They are not main market mass production boats but much better built boats, also more expensive, fast voyage boats.

Boats are built for a market and a function. Main market mass production boats are not built to sail over 50K or 60K wind conditions and a careful planing in what regards times for passages will be needed to avoid them.

If you want more strong and seaworthy boats you will find them but not at the price of a main market mass production boat. The vast majority don't have the need for more seaworthiness than what those boats offer. If someone wants to sail out of season or in high latitudes, than it should look for another boat...and to be prepared to pay much more.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I would recommend to not become all too happy with the new production boats that are streaming out of the big volume factories. Here is a good story about how a Dufour tried to kill her delivery crew:

https://www.facebook.com/TioPirata/p...53996036547726

"Dangerous Yacht Deliveries, and The State of Our Industry.
I have recently undertaken a yacht delivery from Panama City, Panama, to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico which very nearly cost me my life and this has caused me to reflect upon the state of the sail boat industry, particularly those larger manufacturers churning out production boats from Europe. I have, as surveyor and as boat repair man come across some egregious examples and as a yacht deliverer have frequently been exposed to great risk. I feel for owners who buy these vessels in good faith yet undertake these risks without the experience I have to overcome these. What seems to be happening is that manufacturers have realized that it is cheaper to build to a low standard and repair under warranty then to build to an acceptable standard in the first instance. They are well aware that much of their product will not get much use in the warranty period.
Some examples then.
A new Jeanneau 54DS whose stainless steel water tanks and waterlift exhausts were falling apart at the seams. Not only was the vessels fresh water supply leaking into the bilges but running the generator pumped both seawater and carbon monoxide into the interior. Had the owners run the genset while they slept they would certainly have perished, and the evidence sunken.
A new Catana catamaran whose decks had not been properly infused with resin, so bad was it that they absorbed water into the substrate and the anchor winch was falling through the anchor well.
A 2 year old Bavaria 38 with the starboard chainplates pulled through the deck.
A new Robertson and Caine 44 catamaran with a long split at the keelson, port hull. This was discovered offshore by the fortunately very experienced delivery skipper, had this not been the case tragedy was probable.
So then, to the delivery I have just completed.
The vessel is a 1 year old DuFour Grand Large 500 "Lionheart" http://www.cruisingworld.com/sailb…/...-grand-large-0
As you can see it is pitched as a bit of an ocean greyhound. It is a great looking boat and is able to turn in excellent performances in lighter winds and flat seas. Sadly these conditions are not always those encountered. The ergonomics alone suggest the designer's intent was for it to be a big daysailer and weekender only so I consider it disingenuous for any to describe it otherwise.
We were required to deliver it to Cabo San Lucas from Panama City, a minimum distance of 2211 nautical miles (nm) at 20nm from the coast and 2395nm at 120nm from the coast. In the event we covered 2655nm due to headwinds and having to run offshore in a storm.
We left Panama City in calm conditions and made good time to the Costa Rica / Nicaragua border, averaging 6.1 knots mostly under sail only. We were astonished nonetheless at how noisy this boat was, sleeping below underway was not possible.
As we approached Punta Blanca we noted a few extra whitecaps and, since it was sunset, we decided to deep reef. At about 1930hrs we were hit by a gust of 62knots and heeled hard over, reducing sail certainly proved a good decision. That lasted only about 20 seconds but the bimini and bimini stanchions were coming apart and bits of stainless pole were flying about like Jedi light sabers. The wind quickly settled to 52knots, still very heavy, and the seas built alarmingly quickly also. At this point the traveler car exploded and the autopilot stopped so while one of us, me, steered, the crew Jim Jet Neilson, wrestled the wildly swinging boom back under control. Kudos to Jim for being the brave and unflappable gentleman he is, that was a risky business. While Jim steered I lowered the remainder of the mainsail and it soon became apparent to us that we could not hold head to wind much longer, so badly did this flat bottomed barge pound that we feared more damage. Jim undertook to inspect below and discovered the hatches all leaked and a starboard window stove in and the forward bilge pump did not work and that the midships pump was unable to get ahead of water ingress. We had no option but to run before it, doing 9knots south under bare poles and finding ourselves 150nm off shore by sunrise. Further inspection revealed the forward cabin awash and the mattresses too heavy to move, probably adding another ton to the bow, much of the wood trim broken loose from the moldings, the armored glass divider in the master bathroom broken loose from tiny fittings and lying, fortunately unbroken, on the shower floor. This took both of us to lift, far too heavy to have a place on a boat in my view. Most alarming though was the tremendous noise, bad enough in clement conditions but deafening in these seas, an indicator that much of the secondary bonding was bad. So bad was the motion, even when we tried towing warps etc, that going below was dangerous, very wet and frighteningly noisy. The worst noise was coming from the mast base, most ominous.
We were now blown a day backwards and with a severely compromised vessel so we made the decision to find a place of repair and do what needed to be done to complete our delivery safely. We settled on Barillas in El Salvador and very slowly limped in that direction, at one point making 20nm in 18 hours, consuming almost all our fuel in the process.. Having now lost 2 days, we arrived at Barillas Marina Club in Bahia de Jiquilisco to wonderful hospitality, outstanding service and welcomingly pragmatic bureaucracy. Our particular thanks to manager Emerita Sanchez for her extraordinary attention.
We discovered that the autopilot was not a good one, merely a light wheelpilot suited to much smaller boats. That the traveler car was poorly cast of very porous aluminium, definitely under spec for a 50' sailboat. That many of the the mainsail slides had pulled out of the flimsy plastic track. That the top batten was missing. That various parts had simply fallen apart inside. That our food supplies had been soaked and the sodas inside the fridge had exploded making a hell of a mess and contaminating other foodstuffs. That the boat was soaked, including our bags, clothes, personal paperwork....Worst though was the discovery that the foot of the mast seemed not to be adequately restrained at the deck. There did not appear to be a proper mast shoe and the plastic, polypropylene or HDPE, pad upon which it stood did not have all the bolts through to the compression post, indeed it never had had them. We realized that we would not be pushing hard for the remainder of the delivery.
Within 3 days we had "Lionheart" ready to continue and headed out to sea, another half day just to get out of the estuary, and headed up the coast, a couple of light to medium days in which we made good time. At Golfo de Tehuantepec we encountered the expected heavy conditions, though never more then 40knot winds and seas only to about 16', minor compared to our earlier storm, the unpredictable Papagayo. We covered this over 2 days at an average of 3knots and experienced no further breakage. The Mexican coast yielded light headwinds and a small negative current so progress was slow and uneventful for a couple more days, though we became aware that a vessel was shadowing us. 3 nights in Mexican waters we were boarded by the Mexican navy, very polite, professional young men who went about the business of rummaging with brisk efficiency. Another mess to clean up though, and bootmarks and scuffing from their RIB everywhere. We continued to be astonished at how badly "Lionheart" pounded in slop of only 1' to 2', the worst either of us had ever encountered.
Eventually, as we were low on fuel and needed to get a move on we pulled into Manzanillo, no paperwork, to top up and motorsailed to our finish at IGY, Cabo San Lucas.
We actually sailed 2655 nm over 24 days, 20 of these underway so an average of 5.53knots underway and 4 days stopped for repairs, most without autopilot, a credible result given what a piece of **** "Lionheart" is. And about the minimum time this delivery could have been achieved at this time of year. Sadly, owner Bob Carter, who has little experience as a sailor, felt our performance was below par and only paid us for 16 days. This despite the fact that he had realized the boat was underbuilt before he handed it to us and had already initiated dispute with DuFour. So pretty churlish and naturally we are in dispute.
My biggest beef though is not with the owner, who is merely ignorant, but with DuFour Yachts. They have been cavalier with our lives as well as the buyer's money, having cut so many corners in the interests of economy, and produced so dangerous a boat.
Jim and I have each more then 50 years sailing experience all over the World and in many vessels. Both of us are cool headed in dodgy conditions and we know full well that a lesser crew would not have survived nor saved the boat. We did this living entirely in the cockpit as the interior was too inhospitable.
Earned our money? Sure did."



This should all sound pretty familiar to anyone who has followed the long winded arguments on this site between Polux and many others. Yet another marine professional who's statements agree almost word for word with many made here in those arguments. Add one more to the long list.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by minaret

This should all sound pretty familiar to anyone who has followed the long winded arguments on this site between Polux and many others. Yet another marine professional who's statements agree almost word for word with many made here in those arguments. Add one more to the long list.

Funny thing is - this all can be predicted by just shlepping around these boats at boat shows. And one do nseot need to be an experienced naval architect or a sailor with 50 years of experience. One must just use common sense which sadly is being overwhelmed by glossy ads and brokers PR bs.

PS Apparently IKEA now also builds travelers, auto pilots, hatches and deck hardware.

[Polux]

"I have recently undertaken a yacht delivery from Panama City, Panama, to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico which very nearly cost me my life and this has caused me to reflect upon the state of the sail boat industry, particularly those larger manufacturers churning out production boats from Europe. ...examples and as a yacht deliverer have frequently been exposed to great risk. ...
The vessel is a 1 year old DuFour Grand Large 500 "Lionheart" http://www.cruisingworld.com/sailb…/...-grand-large-0
As you can see it is pitched as a bit of an ocean greyhound. It is a great looking boat and is able to turn in excellent performances in lighter winds and flat seas. Sadly these conditions are not always those encountered. ...

We left Panama City in calm conditions and made good time to the Costa Rica / Nicaragua border, averaging 6.1 knots mostly under sail only...

As we approached Punta Blanca we noted a few extra whitecaps and, since it was sunset, we decided to deep reef. At about 1930hrs we were hit by a gust of 62knots and heeled hard over, reducing sail certainly proved a good decision. That lasted only about 20 seconds but the bimini and bimini stanchions were coming apart and bits of stainless pole were flying about like Jedi light sabers. The wind quickly settled to 52knots, still very heavy, and the seas built alarmingly quickly also.

...At Golfo de Tehuantepec we encountered the expected heavy conditions, though never more then 40knot winds and seas only to about 16', minor compared to our earlier storm, the unpredictable Papagayo. .."

I don't know if this relates to cultural differences but it seems that in US delivery skippers seem to think that a boat that is not designed for heavy weather can be sailed safely in heavy weather if the skipper is a delivery one.

So he got a storm gusting 60K with 52 sustained winds and that was not forecasted? He was doing a coastal delivery. Why he chose to sail the boat to extreme conditions, conditions that boat was not designed to face?

On a crossing with the same boat (Dufour 500 GL), from Portugal to Brazil, on the right season the skipper, answering a question regarding how the boat handled "rough conditions" says: "Very nice. The boat is stable, with an good rudder, well balanced. She likes strong winds with rough seas. The mast was standing nice, every thing went well on that 3 days of winds higher than 30 knots off shore Portugal coast."

Obviously he is not talking about winds between 50 and 60K, neither of winds over 40K but about winds between 30 and 40K that are the higher winds one would encounter on most passage made on the right season at the right time.

He made a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlOCspZtT5c

[Sailor Doug]

Pollux my boat came with a no condition bow to stern warranty what did yours come with.

Ps I am a mechanical engineer and was impressed with system design. My biggest warranty was for a new main sail.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Sailor Doug]

Originally Posted by Sailor Doug

Pollux my boat came with a no condition bow to stern warranty what did yours come with.

Ps I am a mechanical engineer and was impressed with system design. My biggest warranty was for a new main sail.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Sorry that warranty was for 5 years.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

Why you have to be a racer to go at this speed downwind? You don't even need a Spinnaker. It seems tome that they are going way over hull speed

The word racer has at least two meanings. The boat or the person that drives.

The driver must be a racer because it takes skill to safely drive a boat at speed, especially on the plane. It also takes the same skill to get a boat up to speed and to get, and keep her, on the plane.

The boat does not have to be a racer to go fast but it takes skill from the driver to go as fast as any specific boat can.

We frankly do not care about speed. I raced dinghies when young and still like to go fast now and then, but whether our crossing lasts 25 or 35 days it is all the same to me. On the second thought, I think I like the longer passages best.

b.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

"I have recently undertaken a yacht delivery from Panama City, Panama, to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico which very nearly cost me my life and this has caused me to reflect upon the state of the sail boat industry, particularly those larger manufacturers churning out production boats from Europe. ...examples and as a yacht deliverer have frequently been exposed to great risk. ...
The vessel is a 1 year old DuFour Grand Large 500 "Lionheart" http://www.cruisingworld.com/sailb…/...-grand-large-0
As you can see it is pitched as a bit of an ocean greyhound. It is a great looking boat and is able to turn in excellent performances in lighter winds and flat seas. Sadly these conditions are not always those encountered. ...

We left Panama City in calm conditions and made good time to the Costa Rica / Nicaragua border, averaging 6.1 knots mostly under sail only...

As we approached Punta Blanca we noted a few extra whitecaps and, since it was sunset, we decided to deep reef. At about 1930hrs we were hit by a gust of 62knots and heeled hard over, reducing sail certainly proved a good decision. That lasted only about 20 seconds but the bimini and bimini stanchions were coming apart and bits of stainless pole were flying about like Jedi light sabers. The wind quickly settled to 52knots, still very heavy, and the seas built alarmingly quickly also.

...At Golfo de Tehuantepec we encountered the expected heavy conditions, though never more then 40knot winds and seas only to about 16', minor compared to our earlier storm, the unpredictable Papagayo. .."

I don't know if this relates to cultural differences but it seems that in US delivery skippers seem to think that a boat that is not designed for heavy weather can be sailed safely in heavy weather if the skipper is a delivery one.

So he got a storm gusting 60K with 52 sustained winds and that was not forecasted? He was doing a coastal delivery. Why he chose to sail the boat to extreme conditions, conditions that boat was not designed to face?

On a crossing with the same boat (Dufour 500 GL), from Portugal to Brazil, on the right season the skipper, answering a question regarding how the boat handled "rough conditions" says: "Very nice. The boat is stable, with an good rudder, well balanced. She likes strong winds with rough seas. The mast was standing nice, every thing went well on that 3 days of winds higher than 30 knots off shore Portugal coast."

Obviously he is not talking about winds between 50 and 60K, neither of winds over 40K but about winds between 30 and 40K that are the higher winds one would encounter on most passage made on the right season at the right time.

He made a video:

So what you are saying is, if anything above gale force winds will destroy the boat, that should be considered normal and its the skippers fault for being caught out. Cultural differences alright! The west coast of the Americas is the worlds longest rocky lee shore, with huge distances between possible ports of refuge in many places. If you go offshore here, you absolutely will run into conditions above forty knots sooner or later, it's inevitable. Even if you assume perfect forecasting and a port of refuge always within range, which is a huge assumption, a boat that required you to run for said port every time it's forecast to blow above forty would not be practical or desirable.

[boatman61]

Portugal to Brazil is a milk run.. practically downwind all the way if you plan it right..
The test of a boat would be coming back..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Sailor Doug

Pollux my boat came with a no condition bow to stern warranty what did yours come with.

Ps I am a mechanical engineer and was impressed with system design. My biggest warranty was for a new main sail.
..

Sorry but I don't understand what you mean by "a no condition bow to stern warranty". Neither what you ask has to do with the thread subject.

My actual boat is not a main market mass production boat, when I bought it was 5 years old, now it is 9 years old, made with it about 12000nm and I had only to do regular maintenance. I am changing the rig this year.

My previous boat was a Bavaria 36 bought new in 2002, sold in 2008, made about 14000 nm on it, again only normal maintenance. Practically none, except servicing the engine. The biggest maintenance was a lower bearing on the rudder in 2008. No warranty issues whatsoever.

Maybe I am just lucky with my boats

What year is your boat and how many miles have you done with it?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by minaret

So what you are saying is, if anything above gale force winds will destroy the boat, that should be considered normal and its the skippers fault for being caught out. Cultural differences alright! The west coast of the Americas is the worlds longest rocky lee shore, with huge distances between possible ports of refuge in many places. If you go offshore here, you absolutely will run into conditions above forty knots sooner or later, it's inevitable. Even if you assume perfect forecasting and a port of refuge always within range, which is a huge assumption, a boat that required you to run for said port every time it's forecast to blow above forty would not be practical or desirable.

The problems on the boat did not happen with 40k but with winds well over 50k gusting over 60K. Those are very rare conditions that practically will not be find on the right season, that some call the sailing season.

I follow and I have followed for decades races around the globe, that are raced passing by the Austral seas at low latitudes and the times where they have encountered 60k winds, along all those years, were very few...and they are not racing in the "right season" neither they are trying to avoid high winds, quite the contrary they look for them to go faster, even if anything above 35K is already too much, not for safety but for making the best speed on optimal conditions.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

Obviously he is not talking about winds between 50 and 60K, neither of winds over 40K but about winds between 30 and 40K that are the higher winds one would encounter on most passage made on the right season at the right time.

Sure sounds like that's what you were saying.

[barnakiel]

I am not all that sure crossing the Atlantic ITCZ on your way from Portugal to Brazil forms part of a 'milk run'. It simply isn't.

b.

[s/v Jedi]

50 kts winds on occasion are the norm rather than exception. One place it's called a mistral, next one a papegayo etc. and every cruiser should deal with those uneventful.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I am not all that sure crossing the Atlantic ITCZ on your way from Portugal to Brazil forms part of a 'milk run'. It simply isn't.

b.

Run down on a Northerly that swings East then cross at the narrowest point and pick up Easterlies swinging S'easterly then South.. for a delivery that's a milk run.. maybe not for a cruiser..
Or is crossing the ITCZ in the Pacific, Panama to Oz somehow different in your mind.. apart from lots off motoring at the start.