Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[Liam Wald]

Originally Posted by hoppy

It's pretty clear from this forum that those from the US are much more likely to favour an old style longer keel design boat a than someone from Europe or anywhere else.

I am not so sure that this is a true statement. My observations sailing the San Francisco Bay are that modern design sailboats outnumber traditional designs at least five to one, and perhaps much more.
I think that the fact that one of the last high volume builders of traditional designs (Island Packet) is going out of business and a quick walk around most any boat show would tell the tale.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Brob2

That is indeed a reasonable perspective. It is quite apparent to me, however, that given Canada and the USA consistently outscore European countries on quality of life surveys (save for Norway and a few unimportant countries on the Baltic ) North Americans are simply too happy to intentionally risk their lives so foolishly.

Yes and that is because Europe is poor compared to US and Canada that Europeans chose to have a much bigger percentage of newer modern fin keel boats compared to Americans and Canadians, with many sticking to low value old full keel boats. That explains also why the last American brand that produced full keel boats (Island Packet) went down the drain.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I still think the OP has a point. The perfect monohull in the eyes of Americans is different (say Island Packet or Hinckley like) than for Europeans. I have seen famous Dutch builders like Contest hanging on to old, slow designs so it isn't as black and white as some present it.

Hanging for old slow designs Contest? You are talking about the Contest that were made decades ago? And they were certainly faster than American full keel boats of that time.
Today they are not performance cruisers but are not slow boats some even do low key racing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z92Dksz76j0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z92Dksz76j0

Besides the 42CS won the European Yacht of the year contest in his division (Luxury yachts) and you can be sure that never an old designed or bad sailing boat won the European Yacht of the year in any category. Just too much competition for that to happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3SLQ5tJn4

[Scaramanga F25]

Originally Posted by hoppy

It's pretty clear from this forum that those from the US are much more likely to favour an old style longer keel design boat a than someone from Europe or anywhere else.

Is it cultural? Local sailing conditions? Fear? Marketing?

East coast sailing grounds and west coast of the USA are considerably different in geomorphology.
Many east coast sailors prefer, not necessarily full keel, but shoal draft as the anchorages are shallow on east coast and Bahamas but cruising grounds on west coast are deep.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Liam Wald

I am not so sure that this is a true statement. My observations sailing the San Francisco Bay are that modern design sailboats outnumber traditional designs at least five to one, and perhaps much more.
I think that the fact that one of the last high volume builders of traditional designs (Island Packet) is going out of business and a quick walk around most any boat show would tell the tale.

I am ONLY talking about posters on http://www.cruisersforum.com/

I've never seen any Americans on Sailing Anarchy pushing full/long keeled boats, although admittedly I hang there mostly for the ocean racing threads.

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

As for this thread in general... the subject seems to be Culture... but really its divinsions in a mono-culture: how many black, Asian, Middle Eastern cruisers are there??
So we are really just taking about Whities from different countries.

Very true. And relatively rich whities at that.

--

The reason, btw, I keep asking people what they mean by 'Europe' is that sometimes they mean Southern Europe (Mediterranean), sometimes Western Europe (that's me) or Northern Europe, and rarely if ever Eastern Europe (where cheap boats come from ).

But when you say 'Europe', you are actually talking about all of the above.
Why do I think that matters? Apart from some political reasons we won't be discussing it's simple:

The closest 'sailing water' to the marina where I am now is the North Sea. So it's weekend trips to the UK and for a longer trip, Norway is at the top of my list. My current little boat is (literally) made for these waters.
The little cats I'm looking at (yes, I went there) might be great for tapas or even coconuts at anchor, but I won't be all too enthusiastic about sailing one on a 3 week trip to Norway.

The Mediterranean are very different then the North Sea, but both "Europe". So are the Barents Sea and Black Sea, for that matter.

TL;DR: Europe is not a country, nor a "united states of" kinda thing, and there is no 'European culture'. The countries differ greatly, as does the sailing (if there even is any sailing). Not sure what the situation in Belarus is, but I doubt they have as many sailors as we have in the Netherlands

People who often sail the North Sea might be looking at different boats then people who often sail the Mediterranean. Eastern Europe is building & exporting boats, but I haven't a clue about the people living there and how much sailing they do - and where they prefer to go if they do sail.

And on edit: sailing in the Netherlands is kinda unique since the sea is still trying to drown 2/3's of us and we have places like the IJsselmeer where a lot of us learn to sail

[Polux]

Originally Posted by hoppy

I am ONLY talking about posters on http://www.cruisersforum.com/

I've never seen any Americans on Sailing Anarchy pushing full/long keeled boats, although admittedly I hang there mostly for the ocean racing threads.

Not even Bob Perry? His last design is a 43ft Carbon full keeler. Not a fast boat since it is not only a very heavy one with a D/L of 279 as it has a big wet surface even if it is probably a relatively stiff boat. It would be very interesting to know the price but I would say that it should not cost far from 1 million. Maybe there is more interested in a slow carbon boat with style? I love the sail-drive on the side.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by hoppy

It's pretty clear from this forum that those from the US are much more likely to favour an old style longer keel design boat a than someone from Europe or anywhere else.

Is it cultural? Local sailing conditions? Fear? Marketing?

I'm still pondering this, "It's pretty clear from this forum..." idea. I can't understand where this comes from. I can't get a clear picture. I did sample random pages in the membership list counting those that identified themselves by nationality and came up with 78% of the membership from the USA. I also looked at pages of photos from the monohull sailboat photo gallery for boats shown on the hard. 53% of these photos were fin keeled and 47% were long keels.

These numbers are not obtained with a sound survey method. We don't know what groups are more likely to list their nationality or post photos of their keels; however, the numbers did surprise me as they did seem to favor Hoppy's original assumption a bit more than I expected. I still can't come to any conclusion with this data.

[Lizzy Belle]

All I can come up with is that in every thread about "what boat for offshore sailing" there's often someone (or a few someone's) ready to post the "full keel" advice. But even if that were to happen in every thread (it doesn't), that doesn't make it "most". Just "some very actively"

Side note: as the proud owner of a boat with a bolted on deep fin keel: it is not ideal for cruising. There be rocks and reefs! But, as usual, there are trade-offs. And considering how few keels actually fall off, esp. on cruisers, it's one I found easy to make.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

Very true. And relatively rich whities at that.

--

The reason, btw, I keep asking people what they mean by 'Europe' is that sometimes they mean Southern Europe (Mediterranean), sometimes Western Europe (that's me) or Northern Europe, and rarely if ever Eastern Europe (where cheap boats come from ).

But when you say 'Europe', you are actually talking about all of the above.
Why do I think that matters? Apart from some political reasons we won't be discussing it's simple:

The closest 'sailing water' to the marina where I am now is the North Sea. So it's weekend trips to the UK and for a longer trip, Norway is at the top of my list. My current little boat is (literally) made for these waters.
The little cats I'm looking at (yes, I went there) might be great for tapas or even coconuts at anchor, but I won't be all too enthusiastic about sailing one on a 3 week trip to Norway.

The Mediterranean are very different then the North Sea, but both "Europe". So are the Barents Sea and Black Sea, for that matter.

TL;DR: Europe is not a country, nor a "united states of" kinda thing, and there is no 'European culture'. The countries differ greatly, as does the sailing (if there even is any sailing). Not sure what the situation in Belarus is, but I doubt they have as many sailors as we have in the Netherlands

People who often sail the North Sea might be looking at different boats then people who often sail the Mediterranean. Eastern Europe is building & exporting boats, but I haven't a clue about the people living there and how much sailing they do - and where they prefer to go if they do sail.

And on edit: sailing in the Netherlands is kinda unique since the sea is still trying to drown 2/3's of us and we have places like the IJsselmeer where a lot of us learn to sail

I believe most Americans associates European sailing boats with mass production boats.

Most of the boats on North of Europe are designed to be sailed on the Baltic sea, a kind of closed sea not very dissimilar with the med in what regards sailing conditions and where most of the sailboats are located.

Mass production sailboats are designed to suit most of the conditions one can find and that means the Med, the Baltic, the Atlantic coast and offshore, not on the same proportion. Obviously sometimes what makes a boat better suited for a region does not make it best suited for other so they are compromises in what regards sailing maximization.

Voyage boats are not designed expressly to sail on any of those regions but maximized to be sailed on the trade winds, that is where most of the voyaging will happen.

I believe that some had already pointed out there is a difference in the willingness of accepting new proven solutions (on the race course), if they had proven to offer advantages there, regarding Europeans face to Americans, but much smaller than what the general opinions of this forum lead to suppose.

I was really surprised with the huge and very fast success the Oceanis 38 experienced on the US. By far the most innovative and out of the box Oceanis in years, with a hull coming from the offshore solo racing scene, a big cleavage with tradition that extended itself to an open interior.

The "experts" here hated the boat, (won the European Yacht of the Year award for best family boat) but I never had saw so many on a sailing forum buying a new boat as regarding that one here.

That says something about the divergence of views regarding the more common opinion on this forum regarding a given sailboat and the outside opinion towards it. Also interesting the bashing of the boat on the forum versus the many that had bought it. It seems they do not have cared about the opinions of the "experts" and also that the general opinion on the forum is changing faster than it had happened before.

After all the members that bought the Oceanis 38 said wonders about it and the thread about the boat was one of the most popular here.

Anyway for many years the boats that sell more on America are European designed boats, the same that are the best sellers in Europe. If that difference really existed we would have Hunter or Catalina designing different sailboats and to a point they do.

But what you see is not them accentuating that difference, capitalizing on that difference of taste, but modifying their boats to be more close to the European ones, in design and that is natural because the Europeans are the ones that sell more.

And they are not making them more according to European taste to being able to sell them in Europe since the sales of American brands in Europe are almost nil with the exception of the Jboat, but that is a different case since some of the J boats are made only in Europe and they sell better there than on the US.

[SaltyMonkey]

Cultural reasons? Oh sure. Americans are more practical.

The Europeans that tend to be attracted to fru fra wine and keel-less boats are the same ones that shave their chests and wear short shorts so tight that they crawl up the cracks and can be used for a bosun's chair. They don't understand the practical nature and safety of a full keel. It's beyond their ability to parse and study, so they tend to debase, marginalize and walk around opinions contrary to what they are looking for -- which is anything that changes in style annually to bring focus directly back apon themselves.

Don't believe me? Look at the stats! You can't make this stuff up. they even play Bocci Ball!

[Sailing55]

Originally Posted by Sandero

Polux.. is name is spelled - Zaal- and he was the designer for many Contest yachts.

This discussion is interesting by dare I say "naval gazing"... very hard to control for all the differences which come to care on buy choices.

LizzyBelle makes the point that there are national and even regional differences... likely driven by sea/sailing conditions.

And what about the rules like IOR which influenced boat design, building and choices? The influence of racing and the interest in it also influenced the market.

Yacht design like most things involves trade offs and compromises. No design can be optimized for all conditions and types of sailing... and with advances in technology we see new solutions to the old "problems". Yacht design is not static, but something which finds presumably better solution as the field advances.

But like architecture... not everyone is "psychologically" comfortable with modernist spaces / looks.... and so you see a lot of traditional looking architecture.. much of it poorly executed because the level of craft is hard to find.

You don't see people using horse and buggy either... an old solution, old technology to the problem of how to get from here to there.

One could also say that the horse and buggy had reached the epitome of design, and could not be improved upon...therefore the only alternative for more efficient methods of transportation was an entirely new concept.

Having said that, is there not a point at which yacht design will have reached the point where it cannot be improved upon without a drastic change in concept? Hydrofoils? Enveloping the underwater surfaces in an envelope of gas or air bubbles to eliminate/reduce friction? It would seem that, at least in the examples provided, flat floored/planing hulls is the direction in which contemporary designers are heading? Which is, of course, the only direction left in the evolution of sailing hulls? At least in the quest for speed, which seems to be the driving force in design.

Perhaps the "old style" full keel cruising boat reached that point, and there are still many who simply prefer the motion, easy roll, modest speed, not to mention the styling/looks of the "traditional' cruising boat.

Of course I am an older guy living on an old teak yawl that I would not trade for anything in this world...I know every rivet, bolt, plank, screw, beam, timber, wire, bearing, bit of paint, varnish, etc.

Maybe it is all a matter of perception, and we simply choose that which we are comfortable and familiar with.

[secrabtree]

Originally Posted by Svanen

Sure. ---why Americans refuse to purchase the various fin-keeled boats made by their own manufacturers like Hunter, Catalina, etc. ---

My eyes must be deceaving me! Somehow they tell my brain that they don't see all of those Catalinas and Hunters that I think I see in the various harbors and marinas I've seen in the United States. For instance, Catalinas are given sail numbers that are consecutive. There are various models of Catalina. And just the Catalina 22 sail numbers have reached over 10,000. And by far the vast majority of those Catalinas have been sold in the United States to citizens of the United States. Most European boat manufacturers can only dream of those numbers. I think we Americans do buy Catalinas and Hunters.

As far as we Americans not wanting to sail fin keeled boats - that's also an incorrect assumption.

[Liam Wald]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Cultural reasons? Oh sure. Americans are more practical.

The Europeans that tend to be attracted to fru fra wine and keel-less boats are the same ones that shave their chests and wear short shorts so tight that they crawl up the cracks and can be used for a bosun's chair. They don't understand the practical nature and safety of a full keel. It's beyond their ability to parse and study, so they tend to debase, marginalize and walk around opinions contrary to what they are looking for -- which is anything that changes in style annually to bring focus directly back apon themselves.

Don't believe me? Look at the stats! You can't make this stuff up. they even play Bocci Ball!

I sincerely hope that this is a feeble attempt at humor. If not it is probably one of the most offensive things that I have read on this forum.
Someone please throw the Monkey a football to keep him busy!

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by hoppy

It's pretty clear from this forum that those from the US are much more likely to favour an old style longer keel design boat a than someone from Europe or anywhere else.

First, sweeping generalizations are rarely true. Everybody knows that.

Next, fin keel race/cruisers are popular/common in my area. IMHO, its because in the 70's and 80's they were manufactured here in great numbers. Many of them never left the area.

When I wanted a more modern design, I had to travel to buy one.

Full keel boats are rare around here.