Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[robert sailor]

Actually kids just like to sail and they are just as happy in a pug nosed Optimist as they are in a new Pogo, so don't try to sell me on that idea.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Actually kids just like to sail and they are just as happy in a pug nosed Optimist as they are in a new Pogo, so don't try to sell me on that idea.

There are kids with different ages. In fact I call kids to my sons that are on the early 20's. I am not selling you anything, I am telling you facts regarding those two guys that own the Pogo and the RM.

The "kids" on the RM are teenagers and the one of the Pogo I recon about the age of mine and they want to sail with their fathers because they have fun sailing his farther´s boat. I doubt that they would stay around if the father's boat was some slow heavy boat.

I don't know if their kids make sportive sailing but if so they would have passed long ago the Optimist phase and will be sailing much faster sailing boats.

[robert sailor]

The Pogo is a fun go fast boat and I would love to own one but it simply would not do the job for us. You can cut the pie as many ways as you like but facts are that you spend around 90% of your time at anchor so for full time cruisers that part of our life is the most important. Why do you think they sell so many Cats these days? Nothing beats a Cat at anchor.

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by Polux

I am telling you facts // I doubt that // I don't know if

So kids can be adults too
You doubt this, don't know that - but you're giving facts
Those 2 kids and 3 adult children (..) represent ALL kids

[Polux]

Originally Posted by minaret

Uh, what about our daughters? How is the average family of four going to cruise for any length of time on that sort of boat?

I really don't think you get that what you call a "voyage" boat, we just call a boat around here. Anyone with aspirations of going anywhere is faced with the likelihood of having to sail thousands of offshore miles on an inhospitable coast to get somewhere warmer. It's not like we have a Caribbean or Med on our doorstep. Everyone warms up on Alaska cruising, and then makes The Big Left Turn to Mexico and the South Pacific. Most take their wives and kids. Sometimes dogs too. The distances involved are long enough that for many it is not a seasonal thing, but a matter of a multi year sabbatical, or possibly more.

I don't understand that difference between daughter and soon. Actually my daughter is a much better sailor than my son. Kids that are into sailing make no differentiation between sex. You will find in Europe a lot of girls that are great sailors, some even professional top ones.

I agree with you regarding Americans not calling those boats fast voyage boats, except that is not what I call a fast voyage boat it is what the Europeans call a fast voyage boat. Probably most Americans would call it a race boat and even among Europeans only the ones that are into sailing would call it that and that includes the builders, the nautical press and sailors.

Most guys that buy mass production main market boats know very little about sailing and are not really interested in sailing but in cruising even if obviously not all.

I really don't understand your point regarding sailing along American coats. What Europeans call a fast voyage boat is only a coastal boat if it is really small, kind of less than 30ft. Bigger boats with those characteristics are seen as offshore boats and when they talk about voyage they don't mean the Med, but the Atlantic Islands, the Caribbean, the Atlantic loop or even a circumnavigation.

I guess that concept started long ago with the mini racers and their proved seworthiness.

I understand what you say regarding voyaging with the dog, cat and with plants, carpets on the floor and all that jazz but that is only a different way to travel, nor better nor worse. Each ways will require certainly very different sailboats.

The guys that voyage on these fast voyage boats are interested in sailing, not only cruising and they want a very good sailing boat one that gives them pleasure while sailing. For them sailing pleasure is as important as cruising and they would refuse to do so on an heavy slow boat the same way the ones that travel with the dog and cat would refuse to sail in their boat.

This is not theory since those boats exist as well as the ones that voyage in them and even circumnavigate in them. Obviously I am nor saying that this is the type of voyage boat that it will suit all, quite the contrary, just saying that it is the type of voyage sailboat that suits some sailors and they are numerous enough to constitute a small market and having several brands making and designing boats for them.

Here is a typical one, sailed by a young family (a couple) on a circumnavigation around the globe. Off course, both are good sailors and would refuse to do that on some slow old boat even if by the price of that new boat they could have a much bigger slow one that you certainly would consider much better to do what they have done. You, not them

If I remember correctly their average speed on that small boat on most crossings was over or close to 7K. That's not about speed but about the pleasure of sailing fast and well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqvI_yGscm8

For the ones that say that voyage boats are basically limited by hull speed look at how easily they overtook that mutch bigger aluminum (and relatively fast) voyage boat they are traveling with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxHeMNLNt4A

[Duplexity]

Smiling... We all at this forum love to sail but differently...

About different boats and building technique, all cruisers are hand laminated (and at certain areas polyester sprayed). This production technique might sounds good but a thick resin between each layer of woven don't increase strength, instead the opposite and it's a risk to get air bubbles inside lamination.

A more costly technique is to use vacuum injection technique and high quality E-glas (or much stronger carbon fibers). with a resin of vinylester or epoxi (stronger than polyester). Then you get with same layer of woven a stronger and lighter lamination. Most of (but not all) performance cruisers are made by this technique. For cruisers might hand lamination be good enough but they will be at least 10% heavier.

About culture difference and Europeans are not sailing with women or kids,
I'm an "euro-guy", this is what it could look like and I'm not complaining....

Elan 450 Charter, Rental, Greece, Duplexity

[Polux]

Your video does not show. For posting a video don't try to embed it just post the video address (on top of the you tube page).

It was this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmDU1_38EvY

[nortonscove]

Wow this thread has some legs. I'm not sure if there are cultural differences but I do believe sales numbers can be very telling. If a style of boat is increasingly popular and these companies seem to know their market then, me as someone owning two sailboats would not question their thinking. I believe that anyone with an open mind must accept that people are different and value different characteristics in the boat they seek.

As for those telling me my mass produced boat will fall apart any minute now. Wow again because you seem to hold an inherent bias that doesn't ring true in my case where previous owner had sailed it from northeast US to Australia. I have taken it up north and at 22 years old look forward to many more years of battling typical Newfoundland weather where 40 knots is quite normal.

[Duplexity]

That's another one but Euro girls love sailing there as well...

But is the fist one there now?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Duplexity

That's another one but Euro girls love sailing there as well...

But is the fist one there now?

What is there is this.
Elan 450 Charter, Rental, Greece, Duplexity
No video.
Just post the internet address.

[Duplexity]

Strange, when I look at post #501 I can see video..
New try..

Elan 450 Charter, Rental, Greece, Duplexity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljVSxfLpGwo

[Polux]

Now it is alright. Nice video, Nice boat, Nice crew

[gjorgensen]

Originally Posted by minaret

I really don't think you get that what you call a "voyage" boat, we just call a boat around here. Anyone with aspirations of going anywhere is faced with the likelihood of having to sail thousands of offshore miles on an inhospitable coast to get somewhere warmer. It's not like we have a Caribbean or Med on our doorstep. Everyone warms up on Alaska cruising, and then makes The Big Left Turn to Mexico and the South Pacific. Most take their wives and kids. Sometimes dogs too. The distances involved are long enough that for many it is not a seasonal thing, but a matter of a multi year sabbatical, or possibly more.

And despite all the modern weather forecasting you won't get to the warm parts without getting slammed, to back up a few pages. I would state that starting from Alaska or Seattle, getting to the tropics is nearly impossible without some real thrashings unless you're going by freeway. In the areas where that is unavoidable there are also no harbors to speak of, at least none that can be approached once the seas are running. The simple fact of the matter is that those sorts of conditions are common on this coast (nearly weekly between San Francisco and Seattle), and unavoidable if you're doing long offshore passages. Heck, even down here in the windless kelp forest I've sailed in sustained 40's with gusts well into the 50's and sea state to match less than 100 miles out (good old Bishop Rock).

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by gjorgensen

And despite all the modern weather forecasting you won't get to the warm parts without getting slammed,(...)

That's another area where proud, but ignorant, America has a lot of catching up with modern Europe. We have something called DYT. Only low budget sailors (seen those USD500 thread, Elan thread, and Bavaria 38 thread?) go thru the 'get slammed' areas. European yacht owners spend their seasons sailing in the Caribbean and Med.

Thank you, Mario!

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

So kids can be adults too
You doubt this, don't know that - but you're giving facts
Those 2 kids and 3 adult children (..) represent ALL kids

Maybe in Holland fathers don't continue to call kids to their teenager (kids) or to their young adults (after 16 to mid 20's) but it is a common practice in many countries, figuratively speaking, when older guys are talking to older guys regarding their "kids".