Wooden hull for long term cruising

[merrydolphin]

I will have to agree with the vast majority here. Wooden boats are a lot of maintenance. Some people are boat workers, that’s what they enjoy. And others are sailors/cruisers/voyagers. That is their goal, and the work is a byproduct. Not the other way around. If your primary goat is to work on boats get a wooden one. If not.......well.....don’t get a wooden boat.

Absolutely the most maintenance free and most sound boat is a properly designed and built ALL aluminum one. Everything welded with very minimal screws and bolts on deck and house. I was aboard an all aluminum cruising cat of about 50 feet (it was unpainted ) They were finishing their second circumnavigation. I asked about water in the bilge and corrosion issue. He said “what water in the bilge? My boat is all welded and completely dry”. Interesting.

I went on a dive trip out of Ventura Ca. On an old 1950’s converted oil field crew boat. I asked about the maintenance on the structures. He said basically there isn’t any. You could see some minor dents in the hull from hard docking etc. and thats about it. the hull was also unpainted. The vessel was over 50 yrs old.

A few years later I got a job captaining a 70 foot power cat. Again unpainted all aluminum. I never knew or heard of any issues the 2 yrs that I had that position.

Wood? No thanks. Due to price my 4 serious cruising boats have all been frp, no serious issues except one with core problems.

As you can see, I think aluminum is THE way to go if you can afford it.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by merrydolphin

I will have to agree with the vast majority here. Wooden boats are a lot of maintenance. Some people are boat workers, that’s what they enjoy. And others are sailors/cruisers/voyagers. That is their goal, and the work is a byproduct. Not the other way around. If your primary goat is to work on boats get a wooden one. If not.......well.....don’t get a wooden boat.

Absolutely the most maintenance free and most sound boat is a properly designed and built ALL aluminum one. Everything welded with very minimal screws and bolts on deck and house. I was aboard an all aluminum cruising cat of about 50 feet (it was unpainted ) They were finishing their second circumnavigation. I asked about water in the bilge and corrosion issue. He said “what water in the bilge? My boat is all welded and completely dry”. Interesting.

I went on a dive trip out of Ventura Ca. On an old 1950’s converted oil field crew boat. I asked about the maintenance on the structures. He said basically there isn’t any. You could see some minor dents in the hull from hard docking etc. and thats about it. the hull was also unpainted. The vessel was over 50 yrs old.

A few years later I got a job captaining a 70 foot power cat. Again unpainted all aluminum. I never knew or heard of any issues the 2 yrs that I had that position.

Wood? No thanks. Due to price my 4 serious cruising boats have all been frp, no serious issues except one with core problems.

As you can see, I think aluminum is THE way to go if you can afford it.

Aluminum is good, but it will corrode below the water line over time, once that pitting gets deep enough you will have holes in the boat that will require cutting chunks out.

The problem being that in order to repair an aluminum boat you need the aluminum that it is built from, so if you are OCONUS that can become a big deal.

So you definitely want to carry some with you.

Myself I would prefer Composite or Steel, Steel will rust if it is not painted, but it is a lot easier to find ship grade steel around the world, and it is easier to weld than Aluminum.

That being said my current boat is hand laid glass, and it might as well be an anvil it is so thick! No hull coring, an inch thick at he thinnest!



This boat will still be sailing when I am dead and gone, and I am 38!

[Rainbow48]

I’ve always owned and cruised wooden boats (55 years of doing so). My current vessel of 25 years is 63 ft LOD, 92 ft sparred length. And yes, I single hand her (1,300 offshore miles this past spring). Traditional construction. She is finished bright, which allows me to keep an eye on the condition of the wood. Two weeks each spring suffices for the routine maintenance. Haul out for bottom maintenance every three years. Anyone who tells you that FG is maintenance free is misleading you, as they will discover someday down the road. HOWEVER, all that said, you have to know your wood work and be able to do it yourself, as very few boatyards have the slightest idea how to do it. I keep “Rainbow” covered with awnings when not being sailed to protect from the sun, mostly. But then, ALL boats should be covered when not in use.

[sailorladd]

If you are considering cruising in the higher latitudes ie away from termites and teredo worm, and you know how to repair and maintain your own wooden boat then perhaps it's ok, but if not, then I would certainly reconsider or do some serious research...

A long distance, long term cruiser should really know about how to repair and maintain his vessel, or be subject to the costly boatyards that inevitably will have to be visited...I was in the same romantic "boat" pardon the pun, until I did a lot of research and soul
searching, and came up with a compromise, where I built my hull from fiberglass and took liberties with the design to make her look OLDE WORLDE, with clipper bow etc (31 foot) and the above and below decks followed suit, wooden spars and lanyard and dead eye rigging etc...I have sailed her many many thousands of miles for many years and she is still going strong... so that could be an idea for you to contemplate, but again, if you are newbies I would stick to the hull material that is easiest to maintain...

[Xlantic]

I have owned a wooden boat the last five years. For the previous 10 years I owned a fibreglass boat of the same brand (Grand Banks), slightly smaller (42' vs. 50') and slightly newer (1979 vs 1973).

I have not found that the cost of maintenance or even its nature has changed that much. Boats are so expensive to keep and have so many complex systems that impact of the material is not all that big.

I believe the key is to buy a well-looked after boat of a good underlying quality and then having deep pockets and/or the time and skill to keep the maintenance up.

[Happ]

I just spent a month on 41’ Dickerson. I believe she was built in 1974. She was specifically built for a circumnavigation which she did. 10 years later my friend purchased her and still owns her today. He is extremely knowledgeable about wooden boats as he does almost all the work on the boat. He and his wife have lived aboard for well over 10 years. I know he spends a lot of time working on the boat when they are not cruising. It is true wooden boats have smaller interiors as his boat was used to make a mold for all 41’s that were built after his. Those glass hulls are about 3” wider. When he bought the boat in 1984 he did a complete retrofit at the yard.

Bottom line is if you have the time and skills to maintain the boat go for it. Keep one thing in mind if you get behind in maintenance you will pay dearly for it.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by fatherchronica

While I would not want to own a wooden boat anymore in my old age, I still love them and enough people do that we have been to many Wooden Boat Festivals over the years. Someone must be insuring them because I have not been in any marina ever that did not have several beautiful and several sad examples of wooden boats in them. For many people the actual work involved in anything they love is part of the attraction. It is far easier to be proud of beautiful woodwork than of beautiful fiberglass work. In my lifetime I have known more people who built wooden boats and went cruising than built boats of all other materials combined. Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Rainbow48

I’ve always owned and cruised wooden boats (55 years of doing so).

That’s a long time in wooden boats. You obviously have built up a formidable amount of experience in the maintenance and pitfalls of non-maintenance of a wood hull. Given that ownership record, it would seem that your personal experiences would provide limited hands-on knowledge to make the next statement.

Originally Posted by Rainbow48

Anyone who tells you that FG is maintenance free is misleading you, as they will discover someday down the road.

I have only ever owned GRP boats (about 45 years) and whilst the seemingly endless maintenance of systems, rigging, mechanical stuff is always there, I can’t say that I have ever had a single maintenance issue with a GRP hull (other than bottom cleaning/anti-fouling).

My current boat is 33 years old, hull integrity is still excellent. How far “down the road” are you suggesting?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Rainbow48

I’ve always owned and cruised wooden boats (55 years of doing so). My current vessel of 25 years is 63 ft LOD, 92 ft sparred length. And yes, I single hand her (1,300 offshore miles this past spring). Traditional construction. She is finished bright, which allows me to keep an eye on the condition of the wood. Two weeks each spring suffices for the routine maintenance. Haul out for bottom maintenance every three years. Anyone who tells you that FG is maintenance free is misleading you, as they will discover someday down the road. HOWEVER, all that said, you have to know your wood work and be able to do it yourself, as very few boatyards have the slightest idea how to do it. I keep “Rainbow” covered with awnings when not being sailed to protect from the sun, mostly. But then, ALL boats should be covered when not in use.

Love to see some photos

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Originally Posted by NicBeeee

Hi, we have been looking at wooden hull yachts of around 40ft. Has anyone got some tips on what I should be on the lookout for condition wise. Very naive still compared to you guys on here. I will be paying out for a survey but would prefer not to waste money or anyone's time if I can see if it's worth or not worth pursuing.
Thanks

(This is rather long, the short summary is: Worrying about what the hull and deck are built from is a pretty low-level problem, as that's not where boat owners spend their time on maintenance. While wood has a somewhat shorter life than other materials, the difference isn't nearly as dramatic as the uninitiated would have you believe. Don't buy an old beat-up boat of ANY type and fix it up, every dollar you spend, you'll only get 25 cents back. Buy a good boat. Finally, wood boats sail quieter and are vastly more environmentally friendly than other materials.)

Good, you should ask these questions now. However, having asked, it would be a good idea to limit the "advice" you receive to those who have actually owned or now own a wooden boat. You'll find the rest of the advice to primarily be the repetition of bar-chatter and some of it outright fiction from some book someone once read.

My background: Grew up on a small wooden cutter, she was 15years old when we bought her and 30 years old when we sold her, never had a major problem. Served as deck-hand and then skipper of the 80' John G. Alden schooner SALEE, launched in 1928 lost in about 1975 to insurance fraud. The hull was sound when she was scuttled. Currently, we own the 60' John G. Alden schooner MAYAN. Launched in 1947 and re-built in 2015. I do much of my own work including deck re-caulking, rigging, electrical, paint, varnish, and minor woodworking. Cruised for 5 years in the S. Pacific aboard our Tom Wylie 65' steel ketch, SAGA. Race aboard all sorts of boats from carbon/epoxy to wood.

To waylay some of the concerns which you've been presented with, insurance is not a problem. You will need to have a qualified surveyor (by the insurance company, not you) perform a complete survey and you'll need to have this re-done about once every 5-10 years depending upon the company. There are literally thousands of fully insured wooden boats sailing, it's not difficult. However, it isn't the sort of insurance that AAA writes, you'll need to use an insurance broker who knows what they are doing. PM me for recommendations if you like.

Second, the issue of worms. With even moderately good maintenance this is NOT a problem at all. Yes, if you haven't painted the bottom of your boat in three years, sail it up the Petaluma River, and let it sit in the mud for two years it will get worms. But, for all normal cruising locations and behaviors, this is simply not an issue.

Third, and this is the big one, maintenance. Having professionally maintained a number of boats as skipper, asking: "How expensive it is to maintain a boat." is a lot like asking: "How long is a piece of string". It depends.

The primary cause of maintenance expense is not the material from which the boat is built, it is the level of fit and finish the owner wishes to maintain, the level of reliability the owner wishes to achieve, and the level of complexity of the mechanical and electrical systems aboard the boat.

Please note that almost none of these factors have much to do with the material from which the hull and deck are built. You can perform a quick survey of the various discussion groups here on this site and one thing will strike you, most are not about the hull and deck. In part, this is because fiberglass is a great building material (when properly built and maintained). But, it is also because things like engines, generators, refrigeration systems, heating systems, A/C systems, alternators, inverters, electric motors for anchor and sheet winches, etc.... all break down and fail far more often than the hull and deck of a vessel.

A simple review of the bills owner's pay will show you that maintaining the hull and deck are a tiny part of the total cost of owning a boat. Thus, doubling your maintenance cost on the hull and deck might increase your total maintenance budget by 10% or perhaps 15% for a boat in good condition, but that's about it. Very few hobbyist owners track their maintenance over many years, professionals do. I can confirm that the difference in expense between a 65' steel boat and a 60' wooden boat over a 5 year period out cruising was exactly zero. Both needed to be painted once during that time period. Both needed to have irritating little deck leaks fixed, which were almost always around a fitting that was improperly installed. Neither needed any structural work done at all. For both boats, the years of use were from about 5 years of age to about 10 years of age since their initial build or a major re-build.

This leads us to the final and most important point: All materials have a reasonable working lifetime. This is true for fiberglass, steel, aluminum, and wood. That lifetime ends when the maintenance starts to shoot up and the cost of a re-build exceeds the owner's ability or desire to pay. The various materials have different lifetimes. But more importantly, all boats are built with a target lifetime and it is the act of extending this life beyond the design and build target that gets outrageously expensive.

For example, our 1947 schooner was built with Honduras mahogany caravel planking atop white oak frames. But, because no one expected her to be in service 70 years later, they fastened her with galvanized iron nails. Moreover, she was composite built with cast iron floor frames in the center of the boat to take the load of the keel. Those choices set the target lifetime of the boat to about 40 years. The acidity of white oak makes it a very poor match for iron nails, the location of cast iron floor frames in the bilge makes for a lot of rust, and by 1990 the boat was bad off. In 1999 the surveyor would no longer give the boat a pass and the owner was then forced to either re-build the hull, sail without insurance, or sell to someone who would rebuild her. In every other way, the boat was perfect.

Fortunately for MAYAN, her owner had the funds to have her hull rebuilt around the lovely old interior. That re-build was approximately 1/2 the cost of having a new schooner built (I checked before we bought her); it was a great deal of money. When we purchased her in 2014 the owner didn't get his investment back. Re-build costs tend to only yield about 1/2 the price of the re-build upon sale. But this has nothing to do with the hull and deck material, it is driven by the high cost of skilled labor which is capable of doing the re-build.

What can we learn from this?
1) You don't want to ever buy a "fixer-upper" no matter how handy you are. This is true of boats built of every sort of material. Every dollar you put into the boat will only return 50 cents, best case. In most cases, you'll get about 25 cents back.
2) Humans are irrational, they fall in love with their boats. Thus, there are boats that have been re-built at a cost that can never be recovered from a buyer. You want to be the "buyer" of one of those boats. Well-loved and well-maintained, let someone else take a bath on the spending. Before buying our schooner, we looked closely at 12 other schooners. We had three fully surveyed. We bought the best one available.
3) All of the above applies to wood, steel, fiberglass, etc... boats because the hull and deck are only a small piece of the total cost of the boat. This observation has nothing to do with the hull material.

Given all this, why wood? A perfectly reasonable question.

First, wood is easy to repair. It does take some skill, but on other people's boats I have replaced planks, sistered frames, and patched up holes caused by hitting rocks with nothing but the hand tools that I can pack in my seabag for a flight. There are no toxic and flammable chemicals involved, as there are in fiberglass (try getting on a flight with a gallon of epoxy or polyester resin in your seabag). One almost never needs a welding torch, as you do with steel or aluminum. While I do use battery-powered tools, but they aren't really necessary.

Second, as wood fails it provides a lot of advanced notice. it doesn't crack the way aluminum or fiberglass does, it starts to stretch and bend, and around the damaged or failing bits water starts to enter the boat's hull or deck. Any reasonable owner will notice that a failure is starting to happen and can take action to prevent it. This is not as true of metal and glass boats where the material is much more brittle and fails in a more dramatic manner.

Third, when a wooden boat has served its life and needs to be broken up, it returns to the earth completely. We don't know how long it will take for fiberglass to be re-absorbed. There are still pieces of fiberglass boats sitting at our local dump. They have been there for over two decades. This stuff is a bit of an environmental disaster, but one that most people don't understand. At least steel rusts away eventually.

Fouth, when painted with modern coverings, wood is every bit as durable as fiberglass, with the caveat that it does need to have the paint kept up with a coat ever five years or so. If you've chosen to have varnished hand rails and trim on a glass boat, and make the same choice on a wooden boat, then the maintenace is identical.

Finally, and this is the most important point, once you have been to sea in foul weather in a wooden boat you won't want any other kind. For those of us who have sailed on carbon/epoxy race boats, the difference is particularly dramatic. When the boat hits a wave the plastic boat bangs, the wood boat squishes. When someone eases the jib sheet everyone on the plastic boat knows it happened because the amazingly strong and rigid deck transmits the sound from stem to stern, the wood boat is silent.

Unlike rigid high-modulus materials wood absorbs vibration. It makes it quiet to sail upon. All manner of noises are absorbed making it far easier to keep engines, generators, winches, waves slapping the counter, and even crew walking on deck quite. Until you've cruised on a quiet boat, you simply don't know what you're missing. The feeling of sailing offshore in 45-50 knots of wind within a quiet and smooth-riding boat is amazing. Yes, one can insulate a glass boat to be quieter, but folks rarely do. With wood, it is a natural byproduct of the material.

Ultimately, the choice comes down to what do you personally wish to work on. Given working on the hull and deck is such a small percentage of total labor on a well maintained and relatively new boat, it's not really in the top ten of choices. It is far more important to consider the reliability and maintenance of the mechanical, electrical, refrigeration, etc... systems than it is the hull. Those are what you'll be spending your time maintaining.

Hopefully this helps. Feel free to PM me if you have questions or stop by the MAYAN blog at https://schoonermayan.blogspot.com

Cheers,

Beau

[Xlantic]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

That’s a long time in wooden boats. You obviously have built up a formidable amount of experience in the maintenance and pitfalls of non-maintenance of a wood hull. Given that ownership record, it would seem that your personal experiences would provide limited hands-on knowledge to make the next statement.



I have only ever owned GRP boats (about 45 years) and whilst the seemingly endless maintenance of systems, rigging, mechanical stuff is always there, I can’t say that I have ever had a single maintenance issue with a GRP hull (other than bottom cleaning/anti-fouling).

My current boat is 33 years old, hull integrity is still excellent. How far “down the road” are you suggesting?

I think the point is that all boats require a LOT of maintenance, irregardless of the material they a built from and the extra, if any, maintenance wooden boats require over GRP boats is marginal.

[Cadence]

It seems wooden boats are being thrown into one bucket? Type of wood, type of planking, fasteners. Double or single planked. I'm sure I has missed many considerations. Would I want one, hell no, I'm to old.

[double u]

“In my lifetime I have known more people who built wooden boats and went cruising than built boats of all other materials combined. “

But quite probably not because they thought it the very best material to choose.
But quite probably not plank-on-frame construction
But quite probably more Frenchies built steelboats...

[CF32907]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Many marinas and yacht clubs will no longer accept wooden boats due to a number of huge claims when they broke up in the travel lift slings.
I stopped surveying them about 15yrs ago as no one was willing to pay for a three day survey on a 40' footer. To properly survey a wooden boat if extremely time consuming and requires pulling a number of fasteners for inspection ..... few owners will permit this.

The last one I surveyed looked spectacular (38' Pacemaker). I started at 0700hrs and ran out of note paper at 1700hrs.

If you intend to pursue this get a surveyor that really knows wooden boats and preferably has repaired or built them.

Capt. Vince Rakstis, Ret. Marine Surveyor
Here. I was one of the only marine surveyors that surveyed wood boats for Lloyds, Ocean Underwriters, Boat US back in 1985 - 2005. I surveyed for 20 years. I've built 6 boats, surveyed thousands. I owned and cruised "Altair" a 60' Wood Staysail schooner throughout the Caribbean. She was built of Doug Fir and drew 7' of water to just float.
We halled at Crackerboys in West Palm Beach every 8-10 months, you have to do that with a wood boat in the lower latitudes, Teredo worms are terrible.
There was myself, two women and my 4 year old son. We were in our 30's That 60' boat on average took an hour a day per adult in preventative maintenance. Every month we set aside a full day of work per adult. When we hauled out, that was 10 straight days of work for the three of us, and we still did not finish all work on our list of needed maintenance for the hauling period.
If you buy wood, you best be a good carpenter, get a book on wood boat maintenance. You will need many specialty tools for this work. A cold molded or strip plank boat relieves maybe 30% of this maintenance.
What ever you do, unless it is given to you, and then think twice. If the boat is traditional wood built boat and it's covered with a layer of fiberglass, and the people tell you they did that to reduce maintenance, run, don't walk away. After 20 years of surveying, the only reason that boats are covered with FRP is because it had major problems. Normally, rot, worms or bad fastenings.
The sailor that wrote the article above was totally correct, I just added to it.
My boat was better in all aspects of living on a boat. It had it's own character, the feeling under sail, looks charm, no FRP boat could compare, but cost and maintenance will eat your as if you don't do it all yourself. You have to remember that hauling a FRP boat once every two or three years for $2000. Vs. hauling a wood boat every 10 months works out to about $10k for same three year period.
Someone else mentioned it, a lot of marinas will not haul an older wood boat. So you need to find a railway, not many of them around anymore. I will guarantee you a yard with a travellift, they will make you sign a total indemnity that they are not responsible if important parts break when they haul you.
I hope you find the boat of your dreams, but be sure that you and your finances are up to it. More times than not, the dreams turn into nightmares.
What the sailor said above. Your survey will take trice as long if done right, it will cost near twice as much as a FRP boat. Inspection of fastenings is mandatory, 2 forward, 2 midships, 2 aft. And you are responsible for that cost. But don't buy if fastenings are not pulled, to refasten a 40' boat could cost in the neighborhood of $5 - 8K. Just make sure the surveyor is well versed in wood boats. Ask for some references, that man can save you or cost you thousands of dollars. Take care, hope you find your dream....

[CF32907]

Originally Posted by double u

“In my lifetime I have known more people who built wooden boats and went cruising than built boats of all other materials combined. “

But quite probably not because they thought it the very best material to choose.
But quite probably not plank-on-frame construction
But quite probably more Frenchies built steelboats...

I have to sort of disagree with you on one item, after 20 years of surveying. Shooten from the hip, Frenchies build as many aluminum boats as steel. I think the reason, Corten steel getting quite expensive compared to 6061 or 6063. I'm not saying their cheap, just very conservative / frugal.
Capt. Vince Rakstis, Ret. St.Petersburg, Fl.