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Old 17-05-2024, 10:05   #16
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

My biggest concern with what I think of as beneteau sheeting is the speed with which I can winch the boom to centre quickly.
Just skippered a 45' with this system and it took the crew more than 10 seconds to centre the boom using both port and starboard winches forcing me to delay a gybe and making me wary of running.
It seems dangerous to me although I understand many old boats were without traveller.
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Old 17-05-2024, 10:10   #17
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

@paul.devalier - it takes me about 4 seconds to winch in my sheet by hand alone on my 57; and only about 2 seconds if I use the electric winch. I cannot imagine how it could take that long with 2 winches. And if in preparation for a gybe the winches are not required, just set the clutch(es) and pulling in by hand is far faster than using a winch.

I have never considered slow winching speeds in any boat to be "dangerous".
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Old 17-05-2024, 10:23   #18
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

Very interested to learn the proper technique.
We had only a single port and starboard winches.
Kept the jib sheet on the leeward winch and the main sheet on the windward winch. Then we prepped for gybe by unloading both jib sheets and loading both main sheets. On a broad reach at 17 knots pulling the main to centre was quite a timely chore. On my GS42 with 5:1 reduction it's a matter of 1-2 seconds only.
Not to mention periodically having to rebalance main sheet length on one of the winches. What were we doing wrong?
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Old 17-05-2024, 11:41   #19
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

We were unable to pull the main to centre by hand. It took three winch wraps just too hold the main by hand with the stoppers open.

I don't consider slow winching dangerous but not having the boom to centre quickly can be. But clearly we were doing something wrong or the boat was set up wrong.

In strong gusty wind close hauled I can be quick to let out the main but then I like to centre it quickly again and with this system it proved very awkward to do so - not to mention having to delay my jybes until the crew sweated to centre the boom.
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Old 18-05-2024, 02:44   #20
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshin View Post
@paul.devalier - it takes me about 4 seconds to winch in my sheet by hand alone on my 57; and only about 2 seconds if I use the electric winch. I cannot imagine how it could take that long with 2 winches. And if in preparation for a gybe the winches are not required, just set the clutch(es) and pulling in by hand is far faster than using a winch.

I have never considered slow winching speeds in any boat to be "dangerous".
I know what he means actually.

I have multiple purchase boom-end sheeting so a very, very long mainsheet. It takes a long time to haul in the mainsheet from a broad reaching posture to centered over the traveler, even with an electric winch.

We control the boom by using the preventer, but this stops being effective once you get the boom over the rail. We gybe like hedgehogs make love -- very carefully.


The traveler helps a lot as you can get the boom tight over the traveler before pushing it over the centerline under control using the traveler. Without a traveler with our setup would be positively dangerous.
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Old 19-05-2024, 10:19   #21
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

This topic came up in another thread a while back. On my boat now I donít have a traveler due to the need for access aft. Iíd like to have one for better control of the main when going upwind. But the vang should be able to hold the boom down even upwind so it is possible to argue the traveler is not absolutely necessary, but it goes against my grain to ask that much of the vang, boom and gooseneck fittings. The one clear disadvantage I have now is that I cannot fully center the boom as I could with the traveler. For many cruisers thatís probably a non- issue.
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Old 20-05-2024, 07:07   #22
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

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I was looking at a Hanse 301 advert. It is in great original condition, and has no mainsheet traveller which I presume is form factory.

Curious as to why this might be, given the utility of a traveller. Is this an example of comfort and simplicity over function, providing more room in cockpit and one less thing to manage?
Let me try and explain what a traveler actually does. As long as the boom is over the traveler you use the Mainsheet to trim the leach of the sail. Using the traveler you can trim the boom precisely to the angle to the wind you want. This of course can affect the heel. If you are racing this can be a valuable asset when you are trying not to move the rudder and maintain a precise heel angle thus trying to elk out an extra 10th of a knot!

On a cruising boat you donít need a traveler for many reasons. Cruising boats are designed for comfort, payload and predominately off wind sailing. Autopilots are not as precise as a person on the helm. Precise trim achieved with a traveler is not needed. Use the mainsheet in lieu of the traveler and the boom vang to trim the leach. This is called Vang Sheeting. Since the cruising hull designs are not designed to go up wind and more for flat comfortable sailing this works just fine. It is a simpler system and accommodates cruising hull designs perfectly.

I hope this helped.
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Old 20-05-2024, 07:29   #23
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

Just for information.
We have a Hunter 49. We have a traveler, our boom is end sheeted and yet the traveler is not in the cockpit.
When looking for a boat I specifically did not want a traveler that was anywhere near the cockpit. We are a cruising boat and sometimes have young family aboard and wanted to minimize the hazards.
Our traveler is mounted on the arch above the cockpit.
This seems to me to be an ideal placement for it and has the least compromise for sail handling and keeps it out of harms way.
I have yet to see any disadvantage although I am sure that in time there will be one. Perhaps maintenance is not so easy and its a little out of sight out of mind.
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Old 20-05-2024, 08:12   #24
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

You definitely need a traveller, how else will you keep the crew busy tweaking the sails? Keep those leech tell tales flying together and add half a knot to your speed. After 24 hours you will have added 12 miles to your track.
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Old 20-05-2024, 09:39   #25
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happ View Post
Let me try and explain what a traveler actually does. As long as the boom is over the traveler you use the Mainsheet to trim the leach of the sail. Using the traveler you can trim the boom precisely to the angle to the wind you want. This of course can affect the heel. If you are racing this can be a valuable asset when you are trying not to move the rudder and maintain a precise heel angle thus trying to elk out an extra 10th of a knot!

On a cruising boat you donít need a traveler for many reasons. Cruising boats are designed for comfort, payload and predominately off wind sailing. Autopilots are not as precise as a person on the helm. Precise trim achieved with a traveler is not needed. Use the mainsheet in lieu of the traveler and the boom vang to trim the leach. This is called Vang Sheeting. Since the cruising hull designs are not designed to go up wind and more for flat comfortable sailing this works just fine. It is a simpler system and accommodates cruising hull designs perfectly.

I hope this helped.
The loads on a vang are very high if you are trying to vang sheet upwind. You're at the wrong end of the lever arm and the angle is bad making for even higher loads. Other than some modern racers with hydraulic vangs, the only place I've seen vang sheeting is on high performance dinghies.
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Old 20-05-2024, 10:00   #26
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happ View Post
Let me try and explain what a traveler actually does. As long as the boom is over the traveler you use the Mainsheet to trim the leach of the sail. Using the traveler you can trim the boom precisely to the angle to the wind you want. This of course can affect the heel. If you are racing this can be a valuable asset when you are trying not to move the rudder and maintain a precise heel angle thus trying to elk out an extra 10th of a knot!

On a cruising boat you don’t need a traveler for many reasons. Cruising boats are designed for comfort, payload and predominately off wind sailing. Autopilots are not as precise as a person on the helm. Precise trim achieved with a traveler is not needed. Use the mainsheet in lieu of the traveler and the boom vang to trim the leach. This is called Vang Sheeting. Since the cruising hull designs are not designed to go up wind and more for flat comfortable sailing this works just fine. It is a simpler system and accommodates cruising hull designs perfectly.

I hope this helped.
Well, I disagree on many levels.

Control over angle of attack of the mainsail without changing the sail shape is as extremely valuable on a cruiser as it is on a racer. Besides just better sail trim with less fiddling, this is important to control heeling, very important on a cruising boat.

Without a traveler, all you can do to reduce heeling in a puff is slack the mainsheet, which fattens the sail as the angle of attack comes off, so defeats the whole purpose! You can try to compensate with the vang, but as others have said, the vang has unfavorable leverage and leech tension is much higher upwind, so this is a weak substitute.

Sailing well is not the exclusive property of racers. It's pretty awkward without a traveler. Having owned a boat without one, I will never again.
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Old 20-05-2024, 10:11   #27
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

Quote:
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Well, I disagree on many levels.

Control over angle of attack of the mainsail without changing the sail shape is as extremely valuable on a cruiser as it is on a racer. Besides just better sail trim with less fiddling, this is important to control heeling, very important on a cruising boat.

Without a traveler, all you can do to reduce heeling in a puff is slack the mainsheet, which fattens the sail as the angle of attack comes off, so defeats the whole purpose! You can try to compensate with the vang, but as others have said, the vang has unfavorable leverage and leech tension is much higher upwind, so this is a weak substitute.

Sailing well is not the exclusive property of racers. It's pretty awkward without a traveler. Having owned a boat without one, I will never again.

All the traveler does is allow you to depower a sail with one control. Yes Outhaul and Cunningham are always important. This comes from 50 years of racing. 25 as a mainsail trimmer on everything from dinghies, to ultralights to Grand Prix boats up to 70í. I have also sailed a few race boats without travelers. The latest was a 14í Weta Trimaran at the US Multihull Championship. Wetas use bridles because being tris they donít point as well. Many smaller cruising boats have had them removed. A few years back Beneteau eliminated travelers on all itís non performance boats.

Having a travel or all depends on the type of sailing. If you are crossing the ocean they arenít as important as most likely you are steering with wind vane steering or an autopilot. If you just day sailing or doing short trips to an anchorage having a traveler can be advantageous.
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Old 20-05-2024, 10:19   #28
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happ View Post
All the traveler does is allow you to depower a sail with one control. Yes Outhaul and Cunningham are always important. This comes from 50 years of racing. 25 as a mainsail trimmer on everything from dinghies, to ultralights to Grand Prix boats up to 70’. I have also sailed a few race boats without travelers. The latest was a 14’ Weta Trimaran at the US Multihull Championship. Wetas use bridles because being tris they don’t point as well. Many smaller cruising boats have had them removed. A few years back Beneteau eliminated travelers on all it’s non performance boats.

Having a travel or all depends on the type of sailing. If you are crossing the ocean they aren’t as important as most likely you are steering with wind vane steering or an autopilot. If you just day sailing or doing short trips to an anchorage having a traveler can be advantageous.
With respect, the traveler does a lot more than just allowing you to depower the sail with one control. It allows you to control the angle of attack of the sail without changing the shape. If you get a different shape any time you try to change the angle of attack, then you are not in control of your sail. In the very best case, you might get your shape back with other controls, but only after trimming it all over again. This is not good sailing.


That being said, and to be fair, this is much more important with good sails, than it is with a bagged-out woven sail which you can't get flat whatever controls you have.
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Old 20-05-2024, 10:30   #29
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

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With respect, the traveler does a lot more than just allowing you to depower the sail with one control. It allows you to control the angle of attack of the sail without changing the shape. If you get a different shape any time you try to change the angle of attack, then you are not in control of your sail. In the very best case, you might get your shape back with other controls, but only after trimming it all over again. This is not good sailing.
Of course there is a lot more to trimming a main. As you know dropping the traveler an inch does change the angle of attack. But if the wind speed is reasonably constant than a slight change in the traveler car position will maintain the heel in puffs or lulls. Of course if there is a significant change in velocity further adjustments will be required.
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Old 20-05-2024, 10:36   #30
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Re: Why no mainsheet traveller?

There have been a lot of interesting responses in this thread.
I don't think that having or not having a traveler is a strictly yes or no proposition, each boat and its set-ups need to be individually appraised.
But, for a cruising boat, (and a little tongue-in-cheek,) I have noticed a few things over the years,
1, The hull designs of many, if not most, of the more modern boats are in general not really well suited for close-winded work.
2, Skinny/thin-sectioned booms have higher casualty counts, and mid-boom sheeting only exacerbates this.
3, Thin/stamped metal boom parts and goosenecks with everything attached with pop rivets seem to cause problems as time goes by.
4, Travelers make it easy to over-sheet the main.
5, Powerful vangs make it easy to break/damage booms and goosenecks.
6, If one is really interested in getting the max VMG, letting the boat "foot" a little and installing a Max-prop usually gains more than any traveler.
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