Brob2 I have no wish to sustain an argument with you
My point of saying its was an "uniformed journey" was in response to the posters "jouney of deciding after whats seems a tour of the boat shows, that you are " safer in "stick built " HR then say a good Beneteau
. I am not being antagonistic, I do get tired of this constant nonsense, that seems to mainly eminate from US forums
, constanly running down production boats, usually based on very little experience of them ( often a charter
Equally I was not beeing inflamatory in making my good crew bad crew comment , I have said elsewhere and repeatidly that the experience you get has a huge amount to do with the crew ability , especially in bad weather
, Anybody can sail, its when the chips are down that the experience shows.
The fact is walking around boat shows listening to sales patter is not a good way to judge the acceptability of boats.
I have sailed a fair few types of boats ( I did deliveries) and I share John Ketrschmer views on this and in my expeience his is similar to alot of delivery
skippers, most of which by the nature of their job have been through more bad weather
in a year then most cruisers see in a lifetime.
Again , at no time was I trying to be inflamatory, I feel this constant "tell me whats best" boats stuff from sailing novices to be somewhat ridiculous. Its like asking a roomful of sailors if they like their own boat.
The fact is, even the OP himself states the typical usuage patterns of a "blue water
cruisers" most of the time you are stoped either in a marina or most likely on the hook. Hence the boat has to fullfill that citeria best. Then it need to be easily handled by the intended crew, then in my view it should be fast. Seaworthiness is such a difficult concept
to define and more importantly test and verify. ( if you used all these SA/D, AVS, etc numbers nonsense, noone would ever sail OVNIs)
The plain fact is the OP is not " safer" in a HR then a Beneteau, he may "feel" safer, both boats can get him into huge trouble if he doesnt know what hes doing. There are lots of cases where the Beneteau will outpeform the HR ( especially the old HRs) and in that case you can be safer, equally there are many situations where the HR is better then the Beneteau.
I have had the advantage of seeing HR's built and also Beneteaus ( and Jeanneaus not Bavarias). In my view The HR is a much finer finished boat, HR do customisations and special addiitons etc that Bene will never do. Equally the tiny volumes of HR compared to Beneteau and Jeanneau
( since they are the same) means that Beneteau can offer top quality for a lot less ( witness all Harken gear
on Beneteau performance pack). But none of this neccessarilty contributes to a safer HR. ( a nicer one certainly)
As i said in relation to teh OPs question, any of these boats, well maintained and carefully managed will take the OP where he wants.
This issue is not about "better" its more about asthetics. What does get up my nose, it that high priced boat owners, try and tell you their boat are "better, safer" etc almost as a mantra to try and justify the money they paid, no more then BMW or ( Bently )owners say the same. when in fact they dont know how much actually went into the boat and how much was merely inflated production costs, larger dealer discounts and marketing
spin. No more then people telling me Volvos are "safer" then Citreons more nonsense. it just shows you how one track Volvos marketing
is, they have to market that angle as the cars are no better then most ordinary cheaper cars ( look at the base platforms used).
It would be different if we have lots of sinking data to justify one or the other position , but the facts are the opposite, Benes etc arent sinking.
Nor is this a "blue water
" versus "coastal" argument. In my experience the roughest nasiest weather Ive experienced was close to coasts and for that matter it was in the Med, teh home of so called "coastal" cruisers. ( and this isnt just my experience either). Hence the implicit assumotion that "coastal Cruisers" must somehow be less safe then "Bluewater " ones is nonsense.
cruisers are more to do with tankage etc, all of which can be fixed on a bene/jeanny or Bav. In fact I sailed the old Bavaria "Ocean" range, not a bad sea boat. Yes the insides are mass produced and IKea like ( just like my kitchen) but they do the job, its not a contributor to "Safe". Also I have sailed older HR's and the "stick built" teak
inside squealed so much you couldnt carry on a conversation, wheras there wasnt a sound in a Jeanneau
And in all cases your "safety" was in the hands of the same Yanmar
or Selden or Harken
Again this is a "beauty" argument not a safety
These threads are worse then guns