When is a boat too big?

[Scaramanga F25]

From ages 60 to 70 handling was fine for me. After 70 scaled down significantly.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

From ages 60 to 70 handling was fine for me. After 70 scaled down significantly.

Just turned 69, doing OK so far but looking for ways to sail smarter so as to keep it going.

[dbraymer]

You already have a great answer immediately preceding, but let me refine it a bit:

A boat is too big when it can not be safely handled by the generally available crew.

I owned a 72 foot schooner. I always told people that the minimum crew was 3 for overnight and 6 for a week long voyage. This mainly because people have to sleep (we had 12 berths, just peachy)

You have a real and difficult problem, somewhat rare. Lets just assume that you and your wife are Captain Kidd and wonder woman. You still have your hands filled handling a 46 footer, say coming into a new harbor at night with questionable chart soundings.

You already have a question hanging over your heads, and I am sure you realize it: How long will your physical abilities last?

I now have a 47 footer which was used commercially in charter for a couple of years (CT47). It has 8 berths. Along this line of thinking, you might consider a similar sized vessel which has maximized interior space, easy handling, minimal draft requirement.

Vessels become much more roomy in the mid 40 foot lengths, if the free board Is high enough to allow interior head room under the deck. There are therefore a whole lot of choices for your intended use in vessels 45-50 foot.

I am hard over against labor saving devices like electric winches, to name my least favorite "improvement". If it ain't simple, it will break more often.

On the bright side, you are apparently making this lifestyle work, having fun, and apparently are visited by your family (more rare than people think)

You are in the happy state of boat shopping. Take your time. Much beyond 50 feet, it becomes a chore to yell forward to the person handling the windlass. A whole bunch of great designers sat down to create this elusive boat, a 47 or 48 footer easy to sail with lots of room inside.

[Sailor 99]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

I did consider a charter but not sure this will help. I remember when going from a 27 foot Jaguar to a Bavaria 38 I thought I would never be able to manage such a "large" yacht. However, after a season I was wondering what all the fuss was about. Sort of a similar experience when I went to a 46 foot boat. However, it does take time to build confidence.

I am hoping I will have the same experience going to 55 feet but this would be the biggest leap I have done.

I have seen fairly new boats for sale in this LOA and the reason stated is it was too big for their owners which is making me wonder if there is some cut off point for a couple.

I went to a 50 from a 38. It really was nothing. Your going from a 10 ton boat to a 22 ton boat so you prepare earlier and better and try to keep the sudden maneuvers to the minimum.

Either electric winches or an electric assist ( right angle drill ) is a must.

A bow thruster is going to be a must for backing into moorings of any sort. Any kind of a breeze is the enemy.

But I would not go down, performance is great, comfort great... Its more expensive but if you got it spend it I say.


You just need to be prepared.


BTW, the second last owner of my current boat was 82.

[jalmberg]

It would be much (much) cheaper to put the kids up in a 5 star hotel when they want to visit once every few years!

[GGamble]

As the owner of a Beneteau 55, I can say that we double hand it all the time. I’m 61, she’s 61 and 105 lbs dripping wet. We have cruised all of Europe from gib to turkey and back. Crossed the Atlantic twice, hit every island in the Caribbean and are currently in Panama. We are on our forth year of this cruise. Complexity brings comfort. We do have Dock and Go. A sweet system once you understand it. An easily sailed boat. We are selling our boat this spring and moving to a larger power yacht. Just my family getting even larger. ( more grand kids). It’s not the size it just practice.

[Sailing August]

60' is a lot of boat for 2 people. Docking, mooring and anchoring in windy condition will be very dicey short handed with such a large boat. There are certainly 3 cabin boats out there that are not so big. The Amel Mango 53 (4 berth) comes to mind.
A wise person once said:
"Get the smallest boat you can stand....not the largest boat you can afford."

[CarlF]

As others have said, length alone is not a great way to evaluate whether a boat is too big to handle.

We have owned two 55' boats. A Discovery 55 with 80' mast and 7' 10" draft and a Shannon 55 ketch/motorsailer with a 63' mast and 4' 10" draft. Similar displacement and beam. Both had furling sails (the Discovery was in-mast, the Shannon in boom).

While we have no trouble handling the 55' Shannon, neither my wife or I would be comfortable handling the Discovery on our own in our mid 60's.

Many things are the same between the Shannon and the Discovery:

First, handling a 55ft monohull under power when docking, mooring, or anchoring is easier than a 45'ft boat assuming you have a thruster. I've never owned a big catamaran so I don't know how they behave. With a keeled boat with 25 tons of displacement, you can approach your landing/mooring more slowly than a smaller boat because wind won't blow it off course. And a short reverse burst from the more powerful prop and engine will stop it right where you want it. Once stopped, the heavy boat just sits there for a remarkably long time.

On a low floating dock, we do need someone to take our lines - but 60 year old bodies really shouldn't be jumping from a high sided 45' boat either.

People who worry about fouling furling sails have generally never owned a boat with them - or owned one of the very early systems 20-30 years ago. The new ones don't jam if properly set up and you follow the basic instructions- Ever.

I've sailed long enough that I remember when some considered furling genoa's as unsafe and prone to fouling. People insisted that they would stick with their hank-on genoas. In almost 20 years with furling mainsails we've never had a jam. I believe that I read that over 85% of the 40'+ cruising monohulls built in the last 15 years came with mainsail furling. The bugs have really been worked out just like for furling genoas.

I consider mainsail furling critical for an older couple because furling is so easy that it isn't delayed until the boat is on its ear. It's simply not safe to be over-canvassed with a short handed older crew. We are almost always partly reefed and will adjust the mainsail furling a foot or two just to balance the helm - something I never did during 20+ years of jiffy reefing. On a boat this size, you must have electric winches for these systems - so add that cost (and convenience)

I also have never sailed on a boat where the jiffy reefing didn't need a trip to the mast at least 1 out of 3 times to clear some line. The first sign of an aging sailor is that they lose the reflexes and balance they had as an 18 year old to be safe on a heaving deck. Once past age 50, my wife became very worried whenever I left the cockpit offshore. She would worry more with a 45' boat than a 55' as it's bouncier at sea.

Finally, a huge advantage of a 55' boat over a 45' is the speed from the long waterline. 8 knots under sail or power is average. This really eats up the miles in a passage reducing the number of overnights and times we get caught out in bad weather.

The primary difference between the Shannon and the Discovery is related to the advantages of the ketch rig:

The ketch rig has extended our cruising time in this size boat by 15+ years because the sails are the size of a 45' boat's sails. The winch loads are moderate. If sails need repair, they are light enough to carry. It's not a great rig for racing but it does fine to windward once you learn how to balance the sails. And even slightly off the wind a well sailed ketch will leave cruising sloops behind. I don't notice any difference between a day's run on the Discovery or the Shannon.

If the apparent wind's is 15+ knots our Shannon is happiest with full Genoa and mizzen - no mainsail (e.g. jib and jigger). We'll do 7-8 knots upwind. Adding the mainsail adds less than 1 knot in these conditions so we don't bother. In light conditions we'll of course carry the mainsail but when the wind comes up enough to require reefing we'll typically just put the mainsail away entirely.

The second great advantage of a ketch rig in a boat over 50' applies to the US East Coast with its many 65' bridges. A 64' mast lets you duck into the ICW when the weather isn't nice. I always take the ICW around Cape Hatteras - too many lives and boats lost there. Almost as important is the Shannon's shoal draft. This lets us snug up into very protected anchorages and creeks. I doubt my wife would still be cruising if we still had the Discovery's 80ft mast and 8' draft.

There's no doubt that a 55' boat is more expensive to cruise than a 45' boat - although many things are the same. A Yanmar engine in a 45' boat costs the same to maintain as a Yanmar in a 55ft boat. Yes, the slip fees are 25% higher but honestly this $20 is typically less than the nightly bar bill at the marina. Better, a 55ft boat is so comfortable and self sufficient at anchor that we use marinas much less than when we had a smaller boat. Our shower is nicer than any marina shower. While I've never calculated the savings, it's considerable.

[ClubClaudia]

We were newbies to sailing and we bought a Hanse 575. It is very easy to sail and it is just the two of us most of the time. Like mentioned earlier, if you are on anchor it is a breeze with walkie talkies. If it is going to crowded, we either arrive early or try someplace different. Our keel is 3.2 meters so we are limited as far as depth, but the added stability in windy conditions builds confidence. We med moor all the time with just the two of us, but we do have bow and stern thrusters. Take the leap for your comfort and that of your family. Give yourself grace that first sailing season and plan on just learning a lot in your new home!

[j.g.evans]

I am not sure of your home base. If you tire of the Med and think of the great beaches and open anchoring of the Bahamas then you may want to consider draft. Having over 6' will be a hindrance. In the spring and fall you may want to use the US, East coast, Intracoastal Waterway to avoid storms. You will need a mast height less than 65' and preferably less than 63' and a draft less than 6'.

I had a large main on my 40' Hunter and I needed an electric winch to hoist it. Installing a sail cover was work. Consequently I frequently sailed with only the genoa if the wind was more than 15K.
Age 60 is a good stage to do what you are contemplating. If you are thinking of a sailboat then the trip is more important than the destination. Don't make the trip too much work.

[iain simpson]

Since c1990 I have increased my yachts from 39 through 46, 51 to my current 57 feet sailing yacht. In each case, I found the larger vessel easier for just my wife and myself, to handle.
I believe that for the average cruising person who often sails with just his/her spouse, a 55ft yacht is probably the sensible extent for ease of sail handling/management.
In respect of marina docking, I would recommend bow and stern thrusters in addition to rigging at least 6 large fenders to each side of the yacht. I personally attach 8, when I am then confident that at worst, nothing is likely to incur embarrassment or expensive damage.
Apart from this, I should respectfully advise your paying great attention to the sail rig, to ensure ease of handling in fair or foul weather through night and day with the ability of being able to instantly round-up to retrieve a MOB or make a sudden course correction to avoid a semi-submerged container unit etc., no matter on what point of the wind you are sailing.
In respect of the above, you may like to refer to www.rhbell.com/simbo

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

It is not the tonnage of the vessel that is the limiting factor - it's that nebulous amalgam of your knowledge, your skill level, your confidence, you physical fitness and your forehandedness.

I agree that size limits are driven as much by crew experience and ability as the boat. For context I usually have four crew on delivery; I have moved boats up to about 80' short distances (less than 24 hours).

In my view there are two related issues as boats get larger: 1. more and more detailed planning further ahead and 2. recognition that things do go wrong.

The statements that modern in-mast furling don't jam is simply wrong. The important and interesting discussion is what to do when they do. Powered winches are great until you have a battery bank meltdown (figurative not literal). What is your plan? Windlass failure? What is your plan? Think ahead. You won't think of everything, but the practice of considering responses to failure modes is good when something happens you weren't expecting.

Never be too proud to go around and try again. Stand off and reconsider when what you see is different from what you expect.

Thrusters are never as powerful as they need to be when conditions deteriorate. If you become dependent on them in benign conditions you'll have trouble when they aren't enough.

Originally Posted by Haddock1

Environmental: This was an interesting take. Firstly as with my current boat I intend to put a lot of solar on an arch (1000w+) and always try to balance power we need to that provided by the sun.

*sigh* Photovoltaic (PV) solar is a great component of an energy management solution. However they are NOT either green or renewable. Mining, manufacturing, and ultimate disposal are poisonous to the planet. Dependence on rare earths and other minerals is not renewable. Until we have a 100 kW micro nuclear generator we are stuck with PV solar but should not kid ourselves that there is not an adverse footprint. Carbon is better than diesel (still not zero and not as good as nuclear) but other poisons are really bad.

[Caz]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

I am considering moving up in hull length from a 46 footer (sense 46) to a wide beam 55 footer (beneteau 55.1). The reason for the upgrade is our current vessel only has two cabins and I need more (for the kids when visiting) and secondly, my wife and I am about to retire (60 next birthday) and will be spending most of the year on board and we feel we need a bit more space as this will be our home from home. There will, for most of the time, just be my wife and myself sailing her around the Med. My question is for those couples that have made a significant leap in hull length, is this going to be too big for the two of us to handle (assume electric winches, thrusters and the like) or is there actually little difference other than the bow is further away from your nose. We will be mostly anchoring, however, taking such a large boat on windy days into marinas or topping up the tanks I find slightly intimidating. It's a big expense and don't want to regret it.

My wife an I are going through a similar exercise.

We have both sailed extensively, so while we are very respectful of the sea, feel that we are ready for the global blue water adventure.

We have been looking in the 55+ foot range. This includes a Hylas 56, a new Outbound 56, and indirectly a used Hylas 63 and yes even a used Hylas 70. We have also looked at Oysters in the same size range and even a Passport 585. We have no interest in the new Hylas 60. We have looked a little at the Hallberg-Rassy fleet in similar sizes but can’t quite see ourselves on one. The design seems a bit dated.

I have a friend "George the Frenchman" (that's what he calls himself), that will make his decision sooner than us. He is moving up from a 55 foot boat and is looking at the Hylas 63 or Hylas 70.

He feels that this size boat fits his mission quite well. George has sailed the globe for 40 years, having worked around the planet in the oil and gas industry. He tends to move every 2-3 years and while he has a land-based home wherever he works, ends up moving his boat close to his location.

So George has sailed between the US and Europe a dozen times, spent years cruising the Gulf and the Med. When sailing through Panama, he tends to sail to Hawaii first and then to the California Bay Area.

So I am paying close attention to his decision making and buying process. George and I are both north of 60, me barely and George a bit more.

I have read with fascination all of the posts and critiques so far. I am looking for other's positive advice and opinions. This boat will initially become our second home and eventually our primary home.

My plan is to acquire a boat “with good bones” that can be updated (if used) or configured if new with all of the modern conveniences. I am interested in other peoples ideas (experience and opinions) about the equipment list that I am assembling. Whether I buy new, i.e. the Outbound 56 or used I want a very capable, easy to sail blue water vessel. The following list is what I have assembled so far. Thoughts?

- push button sailing from the cockpit with no need to go on deck to set or modify sails. I am still thinking through electric or hydraulic or a combination of the two.
- My wife prefers dual helm stations
- most of the boats that we are looking at are shoal draft
- Hard dodger/windshield plus soft dodger, and Bimini
- I prefer in-boom furling but could be talked into in-mast
- Cutter or Solent rig (not a fan of ketch rigs) Sorry Amel fans.
- Will add modern high performance membrane sails
- Some of the boats I'm looking at have carbon rigs, others have aluminum. If I buy new, I will spec out a carbon rig and will bias towards used boats with carbon rigs
- 1000+ watts of solar panels
- Lithium-Iron-Phosfate (LiFePO4) batteries from either Battle Born, Victron Energy, or MasterVolt
- Generator but add the ability to add a PTO to the auxiliary as an additional source of electricity
- Remove the bottled gas, and use an induction cook top with a convection oven. I’ve seen very positive reviews on some YouTube channels of long term cruisers making this transition
- bow thruster
- Ultra anchor (ROCNA anchors as nice too)
- At least 100 M of high quality anchor chain - recommendations?
- Watermaker
- Dishwasher
- Clothes washer/dryer
- Reverse cycle air conditioning
- Upgrade the electronics, digital radar, AIS, data connectivity for internet, etc. - either new Raymarine or B&G, though I’ve been hearing good things about Maretron products
- Upgrade the tender and engine if required
- Simpson or similar davits, but will likely put the tender on the foredeck for off shore sailing

What am a missing from the wish list?

[hpeer]

@^ About $5 million?

Some of us live off figures that are rounding errors to others.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by hpeer

@^ About $5 million?

Some of us live off figures that are rounding errors to others.

And they are rounding errors to the next guy/gal in line. It's a never-ending chain so much better to find something else to do