When is a boat too big?

[Haddock1]

Firstly, thanks for all your views and insight.

To recap;

Confidence: Many of you say if you don't feel confident then it's too big. However, without experience how do you get confident? Each time I have upgraded over the years I have never felt totally confident on that first sail but after a season or two you get the confidence. From some of your other comments I see this being no different with my next purchase.

Size: I generally get the view from those of you that have larger boats that this is not an issue for a couple to manage.

Systems: Many of you talk about equipment failure, however, my experience on my Sense 46, which has all options ticked, I have yet had a failure of any of the kit but I do keep to a comprehensive maintenance schedule. Also I carry many spares as an insurance policy and have sufficient DIY knowledge I think to fix most things unless it is catastrophic.

Handling (fitness): I am still relatively "strong" for a 60 year old and with the right gear on board (which my Sense has) sailing is sort of the easy bit. The new boat I am looking at has a self-tacking jib which I am sure will make life even easier.

Safety: We take this very seriously and whilst I do not insist on life jackets in benign weather we always do when the wind freshens and also clip on all overnight watches. We of course carry all the necessary life saving stuff (epirb, plb, liferaft, MOB retrieval etc etc). Also no beer rule when the sail is up.

Crew: Many of you seem to be sailing 50+ foot boats as a couple with ease which is very encouraging. Both my wife and I are RYA qualified and whilst I would never say we are expert (this is only the claim made by the very few), we are not novices.

Conditions: The reference to weather is mentioned, however, our trips are relatively short maybe a couple of overnighters tops and with modern forecasting we always pick a favourable window. We have been caught out a couple of times (gusts 45 knots) however, once reefed and the boat balanced this proved no problem. I see this actually being more comfortable on a larger boat from your comments.

Environmental: This was an interesting take. Firstly as with my current boat I intend to put a lot of solar on an arch (1000w+) and always try to balance power we need to that provided by the sun. The panels even run our 60ltr per hour water maker. As mentioned most of our time is spent at anchor and with my current setup I rarely need to use the generator. Once at sea I sail where I can and try not to use my engine mainly because I hate being under engine (it really grinds on me). We are very careful with waste and recycle all we can. For example I have just received a soda stream for Xmas from the kids. Works out to produce a can of pop for 15 pence and no waste or lugging cans from the supermarket. You should all look at these machines (wish they did a beer flavour). As far as "crowding out" other bay users, even with my 46 foot boat it does not stop the charterers dropping their hooks 5m away. However, I do take your point and will consider this when choosing my spot. Lastly I know it maybe selfish but I have worked hard all my life starting my own business and employed a lot of people and contributed significantly to their wealth and that of the exchequer. I feel I have done my bit for society and have earned the right to indulge myself. This next purchase will be our home for 6 months of the year and want to make it as comfortable as possible. However, I do take on-board the points made.

Cost: I am fortunate that this is not an issue, however, as mentioned above, I rarely go into a marina where I know you can spend a small fortune in peak season.

Close quarter stuff: Again, with the right equipment this seems to be for most of you a non issue and I am sure I will build the confidence from experience.

Education: Good point here and will employ a skipper to teach me the ropes (excuse the pun) on close quarter stuff with a larger boat and also proper use of inmast furling equipment (current boat has a stack mainsail).

Accommodation: A comment was made by the poor use of space and high up windows (I guess you are referring to Oysters and Discovery's in this regard). The beneteau 55.1 provides three things, firstly a massive cockpit which is where we spend most of our time, secondly the use of space below with massive hull ports and deck hatches does not create that "cavern" feeling (go online and have a look) and thirdly enough cabins to accommodate the children when visiting.

Purpose: We do not plan to sail the world in this boat but coastal hop around the western Med islands and mainland. I totally appreciate that the above mentioned boats are far better sorted for more serious off shore sailing.

I am very encouraged by all the comments which in balance seen to say go for it! Thanks very much for taking time to share your views.

I will contact the broker.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by atoll

going alongside on windy days,your crew better get good with spring lines,as you will be stuck at the helm powering to keep the boat alongside.

Originally Posted by boom23

I have a 50ft monohull (Amel 50) and that's the largest monohull I'm comfortable on without stern thruster, in addition to the bow thruster.

My boat has a very powerful bow thruster and she's very maneuverable going stern to, but I'm stuck at the helm, except in calm & favorable weather conditions. The same is true when stern tying to shore. Regular anchoring is not a problem.

My boat is probably heavier (reacts less) that the Beneteau 55, and it may have similar windage due to covered cockpit. But, I'm pretty certain that the equipment installed my boat is heavier duty.

I think the Beneteau 50 has 3 cabins. It will make it easier for you. Make sure you at least get the now thruster. I hope it's efficient...

Originally Posted by Haddock1

Also I would challenge any skipper that their is no increase in anxiety when visiting a new marina for the first time (or may be this is just me).

Can't speak to the sailing part of it, although I'd expect electric winches, furling systems, etc. would help mitigate the weight and size/shape of larger sails...

But a good bow thruster, maybe a good stern thruster, and maybe also a remote control can go a long way toward managing anxiety in marinas.

-Chris

[endlesspursuit]

I don't know but I've had a few times when its been to small. haha

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

I am considering moving up in hull length from a 46 footer (sense 46) to a wide beam 55 footer (beneteau 55.1). The reason for the upgrade is our current vessel only has two cabins and I need more (for the kids when visiting) and secondly, my wife and I am about to retire (60 next birthday) and will be spending most of the year on board and we feel we need a bit more space as this will be our home from home. There will, for most of the time, just be my wife and myself sailing her around the Med. My question is for those couples that have made a significant leap in hull length, is this going to be too big for the two of us to handle (assume electric winches, thrusters and the like) or is there actually little difference other than the bow is further away from your nose. We will be mostly anchoring, however, taking such a large boat on windy days into marinas or topping up the tanks I find slightly intimidating. It's a big expense and don't want to regret it.

Never buy a sailboat the wife can’t haul the 150% Genoa from the locker to the foredeck. ;-)

[boom23]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Can't speak to the sailing part of it, although I'd expect electric winches, furling systems, etc. would help mitigate the weight and size/shape of larger sails...

But a good bow thruster, maybe a good stern thruster, and maybe also a remote control can go a long way toward managing anxiety in marinas.

-Chris

Chris,

You mentioned remote control... I had remote control on my previous 55ft power boat (twin engines, bow thruster) and I loved it! With the remote control, I could single hand her very easily in almost all situations. I did not need a stern thruster because of the twin engines.

With a single engine sailboat, I would need a bow & stern thruster and a locking rudder to be able to have similar control with a remote. Or, a bow thruster and rotating Saildrives, which I don't care for.

I have to say that my current boat is extremely manoeuverable with just the bow thruster. She responds *almost* like a car going astern, even with the twin rudders.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by boom23

With a single engine sailboat, I would need a bow & stern thruster and a locking rudder to be able to have similar control with a remote. Or, a bow thruster and rotating Saildrives, which I don't care for.

I have to say that my current boat is extremely manoeuverable with just the bow thruster. She responds *almost* like a car going astern, even with the twin rudders.

Interesting; I wouldn't have known about the locking rudder or Saildrives... but then I was also really assuming OP's situation would be two aboard (i.e., usually not singlehanding) and that a remote would probably only be used with thrusters to hold the boat up against the dock face during tie-up. IOW, controlling the boat for most of the docking op would be from the helm.

Just guessing, though...

-Chris

[boom23]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Interesting; I wouldn't have known about the locking rudder or Saildrives... but then I was also really assuming OP's situation would be two aboard (i.e., usually not singlehanding) and that a remote would probably only be used with thrusters to hold the boat up against the dock face during tie-up. IOW, controlling the boat for most of the docking op would be from the helm.

Just guessing, though...

-Chris

With locked rudder and a remote that controls engine, bow & stern thrusters you should be able to dock a sailboat single-handed while standing at the dock... Not that you should do this, but sometimes you need someone to be at the shore.

In addition, with the remote it's like having an additional crew member as the captain doesn't have to be stuck at the helm.

[DDabs]

A boat is only too big when it's time to pull into a marina

[David B]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

I am considering moving up in hull length from a 46 footer (sense 46) to a wide beam 55 footer (beneteau 55.1). The reason for the upgrade is our current vessel only has two cabins and I need more (for the kids when visiting) and secondly, my wife and I am about to retire (60 next birthday) and will be spending most of the year on board and we feel we need a bit more space as this will be our home from home. There will, for most of the time, just be my wife and myself sailing her around the Med. My question is for those couples that have made a significant leap in hull length, is this going to be too big for the two of us to handle (assume electric winches, thrusters and the like) or is there actually little difference other than the bow is further away from your nose. We will be mostly anchoring, however, taking such a large boat on windy days into marinas or topping up the tanks I find slightly intimidating. It's a big expense and don't want to regret it.

We went from a little 22’ trailerable sail boat to a 50’ keelboat (Beneteau Oceanis 50).
Apart from the first reaction when arriving at the dock for handover of “what have we done?”, all was fine. As I mentioned to my first Mate, boats shrink once they go into the water, and sure enough, within a week or so she (the boat …) seemed quite normal.

As to handling, single-handing is no issue at all, and with the two of us it’s a breeze. Docking is usually easy enough with someone there to take the lines, but on the occasions when there is no help, we just take our time, and there are no dramas. The bow thruster is for me close to indispensable – as is the auto-pilot. We also have Dock & Go, which occasionally (and I stress occasionally – like once or twice a year) makes life easier. We have Selden in-mast furling and love it (to our surprise). It makes sailing so much easier, and has never given trouble (in so far, 8 seasons), plus one powered secondary winch.

However there are other things to consider. We had Coppercoat applied from day one, so do not need to haul for antifouling, but do when we can, haul for winter (and our insurance company gives us a rebate for the extra security of hard-stand). So when looking for a yard, we do not seek out the ones who want to charge us 5000 to 8000 Euro or more, but instead go for the smaller, more personable family-run yards who are happy for you to work on your boat, live on board, and charge half or less that many of the others. That means some such yards are limited in the size they can handle in their dock and with their Travel-lift, with our 4.5 metre beam getting to the limit in some places.

Then there is the LOA – the thing the marinas (and yards) charge you for. At 15 metres, the charges are OK-ish, but an extra metre or two starts to add up quickly.
Also draft – at 2.1 metres, we are OK in most places, but much more, and we would be limited in many places we like to go in the Med (and probably that draft limit is one of the factors that makes some of those places so appealing ….).

Next is the sails – no problem when sailing, but at the end of the season, the headsail in particular on ours is enough of a struggle for just the two of us to get somewhat folded on deck, then off the boat for folding properly ashore. Any larger and we would need help (we are both in our late sixties).

When we were looking at boats over many years, the Oceanis 46, 50 and 58 attracted our attention the most. The 58 while lovely down below, was out of our reach. The 46, while being very similar to the 50, had a smaller fore cabin, and no forepeak. The 50 therefore for us was the winner (could not do without the forepeak – full of fenders and passarelle when sailing, plus outboard motor when stored for winter).

Another thing I noticed was the deck hardware, and in particular the winches. I felt the winches on the 46 were a bit light-on. When mentioning this to the Beneteau representative who had flown out from France for the show, he advised they were within the manufacturers rating. No doubt they were, but …. The 50 had the next size up, with the same being fitted also on the 58. So the 50 was the ‘sweet-spot’ where they had to upgrade the hardware, but it was still sufficient for the next size up boat again. Nice to know our winches etc. are enough also for the 58 (and 60 for that matter). That may also be something for you to consider.

So, if you are just looking for a third cabin, plus extra living space, have you considered the 50.1? You get three cabins, a much larger saloon and fore cabin, a forepeak big enough to use as a crew cabin, a very generous cockpit, and a saving of $100k or so, plus reduced on-costs such as berthing, maintenance etc.

Just a thought, but whatever you go for, good luck, and enjoy that retirement sailing the Med (we hope to get to that stage in the next 12-18 months – at the moment it is just 3 months at a time over there).
Hopefully the above musings are helpful in your decision making. You may also find some information on our YouTube channel of interest regarding yard life, maintenance and cruising – if so, let me know and I will post a link here, but summary recommendations are:

In-mast furling (Selden at least)
Powered secondary winch (have never felt the need for the primaries to be powered, but as above, they are a good size)
Generator
Desalination
Seagull under-sink water filter
Caframo fans in galley, saloon and cabins (white, not black)
Air-conditioning
Washing machine (would not be without it)
Coppercoat (we expect 15 years or more from ours)
Teak decks (look so much better, don’t show dust or rain, and with Semco are a breeze to maintain)
Full cockpit enclosure (early/late season rain, plus screens for bug protection)
Maximum capacity service batteries
Solar panels with arch integrated into pushpit rather than ‘bolt-on’
100 metres of chain to the largest Spade anchor you can fit on the bow.
Remote windlass control with counter
Big Fortress in storage bag with 100 metres line + 5 metres of chain
Foredeck plus main cabin awning
High-pressure rigid floor tender such as Zodiac Fastroller, rather than RIB with cannot be stowed.

Fair winds,

David

[hpeer]

I’m tired and skipped through a lot so apologies if this has been said before.

There are 2 ways to measure size; LOD and displacement. I’ve come to realize that our boats, both steel and heavy, are actually a bit bigger than comparable boats of the same stated length.

We are 44’ LOD and 40,000 pounds. Some boats claim to be 44”, but that includes the sugar scoop, and sometimes that 44’ is rounded up pretty heavily. 41’ to 42’ is more accurate. But also we punch a big hole in the water, so we have 6’8” or so of standing head room, lots of tankage, and tons of storage in deep bilges.

I came to this realization by looking at the accommodations in other 44’ boats and realizing that we would have to step up a few feet to get what we have if we went with a modern production boat. That came as a bit of a shock to me, I had thought that with the wide transom sections it would be the other way around.

This is to all said to make the point that simply looking at stated specs, and LOD in particular, is not all that informative. You really need to get in the boat and see what works for you, to meet your needs. It may be you don’t need that much more LOD, but a more voluminous (heavier/deeper) hull.

2¢

[David B]

Originally Posted by ohthetrees

I see what you are saying. Bigger boats are often more automated. But I’m talking about getting anchor up when windlass fails. Hoisting sails when electric winch fails. Having to climb up to boom rather than stand on deck when slide jams reefing in high wind. Modern big boats are easy to handle when everything is working. But we all know how that goes.

I would consider a slab-reefed main on a 55' too big for a couple. We have in-mast on a 50' and it's a breeze, but I know that if it was slab reefed/lazy bag etc, there would be a lot of times we couldn't be bothered getting the main out - And it would not be a single-person job. As it is, single-handing is quite simple, and that's for me in late 60's, and I am just an average sailor.

[David B]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

Couple of points. If the primary reason for the increase in size is to accomadate guests what about arranging for them to say at a marina hotel, they can have all the space and services they want and day sail with you as much as they want. You get to stay with a boat that is right for you and even if you paid all the hotel cost it would still likely save you money compaired to swapping to a bigger boat.
Second point is that, in my opinion, every 10ft increase in boat length over 35ft halves the fun of sailing. Big cruising boats tend to feel heavy and unresponsive and require so much wind to drive them that they only sail efficiently on the sort of days you would rarther stay in port. 10kn cruising speed sounds great untill you realise that you need 20-25kn wind speed to make it. 'light air' in a 65 is 15-18 kn

Well, with our basic (and somewhat stretched) main and genoa, we love creaming along at 7-8 knts in 12-15 knts close-hauled. When the sails were new, we saw 9.8 in 14 true (note to self - start saving for decent sails).

[David B]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

You know your boat is to big for you and your wife when you have to climb mast steps or a ladder to put the sail cover on, or tighten up the pin in the mainsail tack, or she can't lift the fenders, or.....You can get by when nothing goes wrong, but its no fun.

One of my fellow circumnavigators broke his ribs on his C&C 62 trying to get the mainsail cover on...it was a long way from the boom to the deck, and he was 60.

I want a minimum total crew of 4 to move 70 footers around--everything is bigger and heavier and when the ***** hits the fan 3 is not enough.

Furling main solves that problem right there.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by David B

We went from a little 22’ trailerable sail boat to a 50’ keelboat (Beneteau Oceanis 50).
Apart from the first reaction when arriving at the dock for handover of “what have we done?”, all was fine. As I mentioned to my first Mate, boats shrink once they go into the water, and sure enough, within a week or so she (the boat …) seemed quite normal.

As to handling, single-handing is no issue at all, and with the two of us it’s a breeze. Docking is usually easy enough with someone there to take the lines, but on the occasions when there is no help, we just take our time, and there are no dramas. The bow thruster is for me close to indispensable – as is the auto-pilot.

Gosh, I sailed a Beneteau Oceanis 50 for several weeks and would never have described that boat as easy to single-hand. Does your boat have considerable equipment and rigging to support single-handing?

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by David B

Furling main solves that problem right there.

Until it jams.