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Old 12-01-2020, 10:31   #136
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Re: When is a boat too big?

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Your position that one must own a specific model to have well found opinions of a technology in general, is completely illogical.

Based on this false premise one would have had to wrestle an alligator in person, to KNOW they do not want one in their pool.
When talking about a technology that is developing, it doesn't have to work like that, however?

I mean, a well founded opinion about man flying in a metal bird was that it can't be done, until someone did it with a specific model..
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Old 12-01-2020, 12:12   #137
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Re: When is a boat too big?

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When talking about a technology that is developing, it doesn't have to work like that, however?

I mean, a well founded opinion about man flying in a metal bird was that it can't be done, until someone did it with a specific model..
IMHO, that is an irrelevant argument, (commonly referred to as a Red Herring) attempting to compare a “completely different“ scenario as “similar”.

Prior to the Wright Brothers, there was little associated knowledge or experience to be applied. It was a radical and new technology.

There is absolutely nothing radical nor new about ”in-mast” furling technology.

The only thing new about it, is more and more are adopting it due to purchasing boats so large they cannot otherwise handle the sails.

Which is absolutely fine as long as it works, but don’t forever the last part of that sentence.

The one day it finally doesn’t work, could be the last.

Appeasing oneself that this will never happen to them due to this reason or that, is a case of willful ignorance. Of course it could happen to anyone, with any model of in-mast or in-boom furling, at any time.

If one is willing to accept that risk for the perceived reward, to each their own, but please don’t ignore the risk, especially when advising others, who are asking specifically about this, such as the OP in this thread.

There are pros and cons to every vessel design decision.

One of the advantages of a larger boat, is the potential for increased safety by virtue of its size. One of the disadvantages of a larger boat, is the potential for decreased safety by virtue of its size. This is a perfect example; a larger boat may have more space and hence be more comfortable, but the one of the drawbacks to this decision is the reliance on additional or more complex mechanical systems due to that size, and the risks involved when (not if) they will malfunction.
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Old 13-01-2020, 13:13   #138
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Re: When is a boat too big?

I think this topic should really be posted this way..

"When is a boat too big....FOR YOU !!"

There must be 1,000's of different models of sailboats out there...each one different, somewhere in that mix will be a boat that is sized just perfectly FOR YOU !!

What works FOR YOU, may not work FOR ME !
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Old 13-01-2020, 19:38   #139
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Re: When is a boat too big?

RR, your worries about possible failure of an in-mast furling system can't be faulted... they can and have happened... infrequently in the hands of experienced sailors familiar with the proper use of the systems. But if that degree of risk is unacceptable, so be it.

Now, a sailor as experienced as you must have also heard of or seen screws in mast tracks backing out under way and preventing the lowering of the mainsail. Or one of the cars or slugs or slides failing with similar jamming as a result. I guess those systems are too risky as well... so do you have a gaff rig with hoops or parrel beads to attach your mainsail to the mast? They are pretty damn near failsafe. Or perhaps you use the bolt rope going up the mast groove... that too is pretty reliable, but has lots of friction and the prospect of a loose sail on deck when you drop it. There are drawbacks to each and every system that I'm aware of, but the wise sailor maintains the gear and learns the techniques that minimize the risks of whatever system he chooses to use.

And my observation (as a non-user) is that in-mast systems are pretty reliable and most sailors with them don't have issues with catastrophic failure or jamming.

A side note: you, as a professional "boat fixer" interact with a rather skewed sample of the sailing population, namely those who come to you with problems, not t he larger group who DON'T have such problems... the guys who above have reported long term success with the furlers. Perhaps this adds some pessimism to your view of the world.

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Old 14-01-2020, 07:46   #140
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Re: When is a boat too big?

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RR, your worries about possible failure of an in-mast furling system can't be faulted... they can and have happened... infrequently in the hands of experienced sailors familiar with the proper use of the systems. But if that degree of risk is unacceptable, so be it.

Now, a sailor as experienced as you must have also heard of or seen screws in mast tracks backing out under way and preventing the lowering of the mainsail. Or one of the cars or slugs or slides failing with similar jamming as a result. I guess those systems are too risky as well... so do you have a gaff rig with hoops or parrel beads to attach your mainsail to the mast? They are pretty damn near failsafe. Or p erhaps you use the bolt rope going up the mast groove... that too is pretty reliable, but has lots of friction and the prospect of a loose sail on deck when you drop it. There are drawbacks to each and every system that I'm aware of, but the wise sailor maintains the gear and learns the techniques that minimize the risks of whatever system he chooses to use.

And my observation (as a non-user) is that in-mast systems are pretty reliable and most sailors with them don't have issues with catastrophic failure or jamming.

A side note: you, as a professional "boat fixer" interact with a rather skewed sample of the sailing population, namely those who come to you with problems, not t he larger group who DON'T have such problems... the guys who above have reported long term success with the furlers. Perhaps this adds some pessimism to your view of the world.

Jim
Hi Jim, reasonable comments (assuming the perceived condescending tone was unintentional.)

Now onto my fourth personal boat with 25 years and about 15K nm sailing experience, I have never had a non furling mainsail jam nor have I ever received a service call to address one, nor have I personally met a sailor who mentioned having one.

In that same time, I have received several calls to fix in mast furling jams, and it is rare to meet an owner with one, who has not experienced a jam.

I have already mentioned in this thread that my experience is likely different than most, because I am in the marine service business.

Perhaps this gives me a more diverse information base to develop an opinion as to their reliability and safety.
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Old 14-01-2020, 14:03   #141
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Re: When is a boat too big?

My 2c.

On in mast furling, my sense is that ramblin rod is right. It's hard to be empirical though as the in mast fleet is on average newer and more often installed/inspected by experts compared to the average mainsail on tracks, and those factors will also affect failure rates. Also, whether they jam is one thing, but i worry more about whether i can un-jam it. True, a screw might back out from a track and stop a car getting past, but I can get up and fix that and then bring the main down. An in mast furler jammed out could be quite different. If there is not a quick fix, what then?

More generally, in mast furling is just one example of how boats are increasingly equipped for the ageing buyer demographics to allow relatively frail people to travel in boats that are 'too big' the moment any one of a range of equipment fails. Obvious examples are windlasses, electric winches, bow thrusters, etc but there are plenty more. Money can cure most problems when near a port, but I've seen people like this totally stumped with problems that would be trivial if they were young and strong or if they happened on a smaller boat. I'm talking things as simple as whether they can physically lift a length of their anchor chain, push the bow off, get the spouse up the mast. We can't stay young and strong forever, but we can choose to go smaller rather than automate.

Lots of positives come from smaller too, I think.
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Old 15-01-2020, 12:42   #142
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Re: When is a boat too big?

Are there double standards for motor yachts, btw?

I sometime get the feeling that the bar for sailors is pushed to the extreme (everything -- expect what hasn't been invented at least a century ago and doesn't use electricity -- will fail, so a huge safety risk to rely on it) but the motor yacht people ... just go?

Is it more acceptable (and less risky?) for motorboats to have a lot of modern and potentially failing tech aboard?
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Old 15-01-2020, 13:48   #143
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Re: When is a boat too big?

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Originally Posted by mglonnro View Post
Are there double standards for motor yachts, btw?

I sometime get the feeling that the bar for sailors is pushed to the extreme (everything -- expect what hasn't been invented at least a century ago and doesn't use electricity -- will fail, so a huge safety risk to rely on it) but the motor yacht people ... just go?

Is it more acceptable (and less risky?) for motorboats to have a lot of modern and potentially failing tech aboard?
I guess it is apples and oranges.
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Old 15-01-2020, 19:07   #144
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Re: When is a boat too big?

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Are there double standards for motor yachts, btw?

I sometime get the feeling that the bar for sailors is pushed to the extreme (everything -- expect what hasn't been invented at least a century ago and doesn't use electricity -- will fail, so a huge safety risk to rely on it) but the motor yacht people ... just go?

Is it more acceptable (and less risky?) for motorboats to have a lot of modern and potentially failing tech aboard?
I’m not sure what you are talking about.

I don’t see where anyone in this thread has suggested sailors or power boaters should not adopt modern tech.
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Old 15-01-2020, 22:49   #145
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Re: When is a boat too big?

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I’m not sure what you are talking about.

I don’t see where anyone in this thread has suggested sailors or power boaters should not adopt modern tech.
Well no, I didn't mean specifically this thread. And it was more of a subjective feeling and question anyway. If nobody shares it, then I'm probably wrong
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Old 16-01-2020, 07:40   #146
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Re: When is a boat too big?

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Well no, I didn't mean specifically this thread. And it was more of a subjective feeling and question anyway. If nobody shares it, then I'm probably wrong
Oh, I understand now.

This thread is about, "When is a boat too big?"

A spin-off discussion is about the perceived need for certain sail handling equipment on larger boats, their reliability, and potential hazards from relying on them.

If you would like to discuss a different subject, perhaps you should start a new thread with an appropriate title, to engage members who wish to discuss that subject?

It actually is an interesting subject.
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Old 16-01-2020, 08:58   #147
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Re: When is a boat too big?

Any boat bigger than mine is too big.
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Old 16-01-2020, 17:39   #148
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Re: When is a boat too big?

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Are there double standards for motor yachts, btw?

I sometime get the feeling that the bar for sailors is pushed to the extreme (everything -- expect what hasn't been invented at least a century ago and doesn't use electricity -- will fail, so a huge safety risk to rely on it) but the motor yacht people ... just go?

Is it more acceptable (and less risky?) for motorboats to have a lot of modern and potentially failing tech aboard?
I think the difference in perceived risk relates in large part to how people will use the boats. There re a lot of people off sailing the ocean blue on relatively small, moderately priced, often well past their prime, sailboats. I don't get the feeling that too many people are taking comparably sized, priced and broken in motor boats across oceans. I will hypothesize that there are at least two reasons for this: (1) they don't have the tankage to do it; and (2) even the insanity of boat owners has some limits.

I am ready to be proven wrong by evidence on either hypothesis, but I guess I feel more vulnerable on (2). Maybe there really is no limit to the insanity of boat owners, and people are taking ski boats across the Atlantic!

My apologies if this is veering too far off topic.
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Old 17-01-2020, 00:30   #149
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Re: When is a boat too big?

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I think the difference in perceived risk relates in large part to how people will use the boats. There re a lot of people off sailing the ocean blue on relatively small, moderately priced, often well past their prime, sailboats. I don't get the feeling that too many people are taking comparably sized, priced and broken in motor boats across oceans. I will hypothesize that there are at least two reasons for this: (1) they don't have the tankage to do it; and (2) even the insanity of boat owners has some limits.

I am ready to be proven wrong by evidence on either hypothesis, but I guess I feel more vulnerable on (2). Maybe there really is no limit to the insanity of boat owners, and people are taking ski boats across the Atlantic!

My apologies if this is veering too far off topic.
This was quite entertaining to read

To narrow it down a bit, and sticking to the topic of "when is a boat too big", I'm specifically thinking about docking technology here.

Last summer we saw more than one power boat in the 40-50 ft range docking with the skipper (or should I say 'user') standing on the stern bathing platform operating the whole thing using something that looked like an AppleTV remote control.

Thrusters, rotating sail drives, computers, remote controls -- it would seem intuitive that these kinds of systems would allow bigger boats to "not be too big".

Are these kinds of systems met with less resistance and more acceptance among the power boaters?
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Old 17-01-2020, 05:16   #150
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Re: When is a boat too big?

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Are these kinds of systems met with less resistance and more acceptance among the power boaters?

Yacht Controller, or similar. Which in turn needs thrusters, too. Often the main "resistance" is only about cost.

There are some who swear nobody needs any new technology, skippers just need to learn to dock the boat. But then there are some (often with bigger wallets who either a) already know how to dock and would prefer some help, or b) don't know how to spell the word "boat" but reckon they're entitled to drive one and they expect technology to support.

This has long applied to thrusters yes/no, but now those are more popular and the same discussion is more often about joystick control.

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