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Old 03-12-2016, 09:49   #16
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

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Hello everybody!

I'm wondering what qualities a sailboat must have to be a (go anywhere) blue-water cruiser. I have some limited sailing experience (Meds only) but fell in love with it and I am now looking at affordable sailboats to do some extended cruising on big waters.

Of course there are the well known boats which have the reputation of being capable to take you anywhere, but what if this boat is not a famous design?

I have found this boat which is almost the right size and amount of "project-boat" I'm looking for, but I can't find any information on this design and thus its sea-worthiness. I believe as a ketch-rigged steel boat with a medium long keel it sort of falls into the go-anywhere category. I believe she's a good boat, but I would be really happy if anybody could share his/her opinion about her. (Don't worry about the interior since this would entirely be redone.)
I own a steel cutter 12 M in length and a weight of some 14,000 kgs. built in 1988 and which has never been in salt water. A 10 M steel ketch of 9000 kgs. is going to be slow, but likely sea-worthy assuming all other aspects of its design are conservative. However, 1970 was a very long time ago, and time kills steel unless a) the initial build was excellent in terms of limber holes, standing water and very good coatings and b) every owner since has been aware of the several enemies facing steel and have been fastidious about remediation.

A boat that old in steel could be a lovely thing. Odds are strong, though, that it is in bad shape. You need to educate yourself as to where to look for problems; if the boat seems "clean", you need to have it surveyed by a proper steel-boat surveyor, which will reveal if the boat is worth not just the asking price, but anything at all.

I would add that if anyone can make a steel boat of good quality capable of lasting 45 years, it's the Dutch, but they aren't miracle workers, especially after the boat is sold. Good luck.
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:57   #17
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

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Weight vs Size.. being a steel boat owner (39ft) who regularly gets passed by lighter plastic boats off similar and smaller size.. till I turn on the engine and pass them at 7.5kts..
But.. she doesn't bounce around the way a plastic fantastic will
Very true. I told my wife when we bought ours that "it's a motor-sailer. Even used as a sailer-motor, by which I meant opting as often as possible for full sail instead of hundreds of hours motoring, we're doing a circ at an average 4.5 knots, tops." That said, the boat can sail past 7 knots, but how often do you get 22 knots in a broad reach outside of the trades?

You buy steel for other reasons than speed. The smaller the steel boat, the less likely they will be fast and the more "seaworthy" they will be. After all, ever seen a fibreglass sea buoy?
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:05   #18
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

good morning from france,
I bought my 1975 30 ft steel canal cruiser from the boat brokerage group that
you are considering buying your boat from.
They are a very professional & well organised group & a pleasure to do
business with.
Before I started my search I contacted 4/5 of them ( the netherlands are
not very big ) & arranged to view about 10 boats between them all.
If & when I saw something that might suit I offered about 20% less than
the asking price (subject to conditions) and drove off, suggesting that the
further away I got the less keen I was.

I paid €21 large that was asking €26 but like most boats (& engines) its
age I swopped its mercedes 636 for a beautiful trouble free nanni 43 hp.

Hope this is of some help,
Norman
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:24   #19
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

[QUOTE=trbgld;2271271]Hello everybody!

I'm wondering what qualities a sailboat must have to be a (go anywhere) blue-water cruiser. I have some limited sailing experience (Meds only) but fell in love with it and I am now looking at affordable sailboats to do some extended cruising on big waters.

Of course there are the well known boats which have the reputation of being capable to take you anywhere, but what if this boat is not a famous design?

I have found this boat which is almost the right size and amount of "project-boat" I'm looking for, but I can't find any information on this design and thus its sea-worthiness. I believe as a ketch-rigged steel boat with a medium long keel it sort of falls into the go-anywhere category. I believe she's a good boat, but I would be really happy if anybody could share his/her opinion about her. (Don't worry about the interior since this would entirely be redone.)[As I see it, then you will refit the boat, so no problemder there, you will get the device you will find will suit you.

I am a big advantage with 2 master, since the sails will not be so large, and therefore easier to handle, and it is easy to find a sejlførng to suit the current wind and wave size.
You will never have a larger sail than it can give you hulls move.

If you want to sail Blue Water will be the most with the wind and not against.
So if the hull is not worn and rusted away, so I would not concern me.

For it with management and the kind is the only technical problems.

I am also most for steel, because of the trades, I prefer to sail in

Cheers Peter]
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:25   #20
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

The most important quality of a boat, which makes her seaworthy...is the skipper. People have crossed oceans on rowboats, windsurfers, and lots of boats under 20 feet. Lots of "seaworthy" boats have been lost. Look, for example, at the Titanic...the most seaworthy vessel ever built.

The question really, is what is the right boat for you. For many of us, its the boat we can afford. If you have a bucket or barrel of money, then you can enjoy long discussions regarding the merits of modified fin over full keel, or steel over thick glass.

However, I did look at the pictures of the boat you posted...and it does look pretty good. Slow, but reasonable.

Keep in mind, slow is not something to be disregarded. Being able to avoid approaching weather, or getting to your destination within a reasonable weather window can be important. A friend of mine outfitted a Bayfield 29 to sail south. Out of fear, or perhaps lack of experience, he chose to load the boat up with every possible piece of gear he might ever need, not the least of which were 2 all chain rodes, 3 big anchors, and enough food and fuel to last a very long time. Unfortunately, the boat was so overloaded that he needed WOT all the time, and made terrible speed. He could not keep up with any group of boats he joined (for safety), and ended up in an awful storm, while everyone else (in his new group) had been able to rush to harbour with time to spare. So yes, if you are patient and don't mind slow, by all means get a sailboat. But to get a slow sailboat...boy, you are really asking for it. I spent 3 weeks crossing the atlantic...I doubt we would have survived another week or two without killing each other.

So, my advice, go sailing. The more you sail, the better equipped your boat will be. And remember, you don't choose the boat, the boat chooses you!
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:26   #21
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

All else being equal, the ability to keep the water on the outside of the hull come hell or high water is the #1 priority in making a boat a go-anywhere, long-distance cruiser.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:27   #22
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

There is nothing wrong with a 33 foot steel boat if it was built to the designers specs, and he knew what he was doing. Looking at the slid show, I see nothing that I would consider a problem for any kind of cruising. It appears to be outfitted well (I wish I had those winches) and even tho I prefer a sloop or cutter, the ketch has lots of qualities also. Making sure that it was built as intended is important. The keel foil has to be correct and the ballast needs to be what the designer stated, not some cheaper materiel. I did long passages in a much smaller boat so size is more an issue of your budget and attitude and I owned and cruised in a steel 37 foot sloop for a couple of years and it was not overly heavy. The transom hung rudder gives you a few more options for windvanes than an inboard rudder and is easier to maintain. The one thing I would recommend against is tearing out the interior and re-inventing the cruising boat. You stated that you are pretty inexperienced, and there are mostly good reasons why interiors are like they are. Live with it for a while and you will probably find out it will be OK. Adding extra interior handholds is always good and I dont think I saw any padeyes in the cockpit for safety harness lanyards, but overall it looks like an honest cruising boat. I cant tell what the fuel tankage question is, but many on this forum think you need huge tankage go cruising when what you really need is good light air sails, skill and patience. There are lots of boats for sale so I would not fall in love too easily, but I see nothing that would eliminate that ketch from being a good cruising boat. Best of luck with whatever you buy. _____Grant.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:27   #23
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

In my experience, it is Mastercard or VISA.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:30   #24
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

oops!
Just looked at english version of ad, 2006 engine, hmmm,
I cannot see size of fuel tank mentioned anywhere on spec sheet but I would bet that when she was fitted with new engine in 2006 she was also fitted with stainless steel tank, mail the broker & have him check.... on the " thats the only boat for me " scenario, I would'nt be wearing my heart on my sleeve....
Norman
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:30   #25
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

Your answer is right here: "Ausbau muß komplett erneuert werden"

This is a project boat as you say, and from an unknown designer, built in a material that is notoriously apt to give you nasty surprises if not SCRUPULOUSLY kept inside and out from the day the boat was originally launched.

To my eye she also looks clumsy, but that is no more than a vague impression from a photo. Plans were not to be found on the internet, nor anything about the designer, nor anything about the builder. There was a period, coinciding with this boats apparent launching date when lot of people with a backyard and a welding rig held themselves out to be a "werft".

This boat appears to be advertised all over Europe at ever declining prices. There has to be a reason. Give it a pass.

As a novice I think you'd be well advised to stick to fibreglass. The world is full of good boats that can be bought for the listing price of this one. Boats from good, KNOWN designers, from good KNOWN builders, boats that are do NOT require Ausbau komplett erneuert zu werden.

As others have said: It's the SKIPPER that makes a boat a blue water boat. IMO you should focus on becoming a skipper without letting yourself get distracted by a major "project".

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Old 03-12-2016, 10:36   #26
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

Is the mizzen sheet really attached to the pushpit? If so, I'd be concerned by that.
And for blue water sailing you really want a boat that will go to windward, and relatively small ketches don't do that very well at all.

Similarly, with its steel hull this boat is likely to have a very low length/displacement ratio which will make it slow in anything other than brisk conditions. OK, you don't need an 'Admirals Cupper' for cruising, but neither do you want to have to resort to the donk whenever the wind drops below F4.

So no, I don't I don't think this boat is an ideal bluewater cruiser.

Take a look at Blue Water Saiboats for a few other takes on this.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:43   #27
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

BTW have you seen this site?
Sailboat Reviews of Offshore Cruising Yachts : Bluewaterboats.org
be sure to check the "vote for upcoming sailboats" section too, there are quite a few good ones in there too.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:50   #28
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

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Thanks, I can read german. My point about the fuel tank is the size. If it's so little there's no point to mention the volume then it's inadaquate..

BR Teddy
Don't see what the size of the fuel tank has to do with the seaworthiness of a boat. Sure it will determine the range under power but that's not exactly the biggest factor in choosing a cruising boat.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:57   #29
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Don't see what the size of the fuel tank has to do with the seaworthiness of a boat. Sure it will determine the range under power but that's not exactly the biggest factor in choosing a cruising boat.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:10   #30
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Re: What makes a boat a go-anywhere blue-water cruiser?

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Originally Posted by hamburking View Post
The most important quality of a boat, which makes her seaworthy...is the skipper. People have crossed oceans on rowboats, windsurfers, and lots of boats under 20 feet. Lots of "seaworthy" boats have been lost. Look, for example, at the Titanic...the most seaworthy vessel ever built.

The question really, is what is the right boat for you. For many of us, its the boat we can afford. If you have a bucket or barrel of money, then you can enjoy long discussions regarding the merits of modified fin over full keel, or steel over thick glass.

However, I did look at the pictures of the boat you posted...and it does look pretty good. Slow, but reasonable.

Keep in mind, slow is not something to be disregarded. Being able to avoid approaching weather, or getting to your destination within a reasonable weather window can be important. A friend of mine outfitted a Bayfield 29 to sail south. Out of fear, or perhaps lack of experience, he chose to load the boat up with every possible piece of gear he might ever need, not the least of which were 2 all chain rodes, 3 big anchors, and enough food and fuel to last a very long time. Unfortunately, the boat was so overloaded that he needed WOT all the time, and made terrible speed. He could not keep up with any group of boats he joined (for safety), and ended up in an awful storm, while everyone else (in his new group) had been able to rush to harbour with time to spare. So yes, if you are patient and don't mind slow, by all means get a sailboat. But to get a slow sailboat...boy, you are really asking for it. I spent 3 weeks crossing the atlantic...I doubt we would have survived another week or two without killing each other.

So, my advice, go sailing. The more you sail, the better equipped your boat will be. And remember, you don't choose the boat, the boat chooses you!
Slowness is only partially dependent on the weight of excess gear. The Bayield 29 is jus under 22 feet at waterline. The shorter the waterline, the slower the boat. I suspect your friends boat buddies were in larger boats!
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