What is going on with all the price drops on large, old boats?

[12 sail away]

I am the owner of a beautiful Hallberg Rassy 31 with a berth on the Italian Tuscan coast in the Mediterranean. We use the boat primarily during vacations and (long) weekends off since I am working -more than- full-time and getting to my boat takes a day.

Despite that we are extremely satisfied with our Rassy plans are once I get more time to buy a bigger boat (42-46 foot could also be a Rassy) to spend more time/cruising the Med (no I will not navigate the world, no ambition, the Med is beautiful enough for many lives and I only have one).
We are in no hurry at all and will take at least 5 to 7 years from now, if even.

Of course I am following the yacht market, go to a broker now and then to 'experience' what he has to offer. The more I sail in the Med, the more good and extremely bad weather I experience the more I value the design principles of my boat hence I look for this characteristics in the larger segment.

Note: I am sailing more then 30 years, had 44 ft Jeanneau & Bavaria and once kids didn't want to join anymore bought a Rassy, a decision I have not regret for a second..gone were all the maintenance issues, everything works always not to mention the predictable and safe sailing characteristics of a 'classic' design yacht/blue water capable yacht. Gone was the fear for Mediterrenean bad weather as well.

The past 12 months I saw that the classic, somewhat older type boats I was 'following' on the market, think of Hallberg Rassy, Contest, Najad, Swan etc. didn't sell.

Since beginning of this year price drops are the standard every couple of months and the amounts they drop seems to increase. I saw a nice Swan for sale, where price dropped 30%, same with a Rassy 25%. Called both brokers -honest guys- they said ZERO interest in 6 months, not even a single person asked to look into the boat, heard the same stories from other brokers, no demand.
They seem to have however a few common denominators: build before 2000, teak deck and original engine. Everyone avoids this.

During Covid these boats were gone in a weekend. Now zero interest, exception of course.

I know CF is mainly focused on US =do you see this trend also there?

Question is: where will it end. Teak decks are getting anyhow into an ethics discussion, artificial/plastic teak maybe but here they talk about the 'plastic teak mafia': getting also more expensive by the day.

Or is it an opportunity to buy a well proven design knowing a new motor and teak/plastic to include in your costs...but then again: where/when will it end...clearly getting into a buyers market. Happy that I don't have to SELL a 45 or so footer..

[dlj]

I'm not sure why you wouldn't just keep and sail your Hallberg Rassy 31. That's a great boat and a great boat to sail in the Med.

The used boat market always has a lot of up's and down's. Covid was an unusual peak in boat prices. I haven't been following boat prices in a couple years so don't know what the US market is doing. I would guess it's similar to where you are.

dj

[Shrew]

I'm not sure this is a surprise. Covid had a lot of people sitting around not spending money. It was a time of incredibly low interest rates. The residential real estate, RV and boating market saw a massive demand that drive up prices.

People started taking out loans and second mortgages on property which valuation was up 50% is some cases. The demand far outscaled supply and the market was driven up in a somewhat unsustainable bubble.

Social restrictions were lifted and people went back to their normal lives. Boats and RV's were no longer to social distancing necessity they were 4-5 years ago. Many new 'covid' boaters began to realize the true cost of owning and operating boats, both cost and labor.

Now we're seeing huge economic uncertainty. Interest have gotten very high. Anyone with a variable interest loan is now paying significantly higher interest.

Boats start getting listed in a softening market which is still subject to high interest rates and economic uncertainty.

Now with demand lower than the supply and many sellers eager to get out, the prices are dropping. Many boats outside of the US are seeing a decrease in US buyers afraid of tariff implications.

That's just my .02 on the macroeconomics of the current boat market. I'm likely wrong. I'm just a guy with a keyboard and an internet connection.

[dlymn]

Some factors influencing buying boats
Declining interest in sailing
Young rich have " better things to do" than buy a boat to sail the Med/world eg houses, cars, parties, gym, hours on social media and gaming, etc ad nauseum.
Activist attacks on luxury boats
Significant publicity about boats sinking and/or passengers dying.
Unstable economic times
Planned obsolescence
Power boats that go fast and flat
Distaste for travelling on a lean
Realisation that keeping a boat in storage is very expensive especially if it's thousands of km away and so getting used maybe once or twice a year.
Marinas are full of boats that were once used and now are sitting idle gathering algae. The owners have become bored with the repetition.
Realisation that you must return to base after 2 weeks of sailing and so you don't get very far from home base. Retirees are different because they can sail for 3/6+ months at a time. Other people are travelling the world; you're sailing in the Aegean(can be very windy, 2 weeks tied up, meh) or the gulf of Amerexico
Maintenance costs soaring.
In the US, declining respect for sailing authorities maybe because the nation is no longer winning. How can you respect a sport when you can't get close to winning the AC and a tiny country keeps on winning.
Difficulty in getting crew who " love" sailing and will be rail meat for free.
Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera

[Bowdrie]

Yeah, in general, their are more things competing for your time/money than in the past.
Older boats are always after you to varnish and paint and oil and scrub and pamper them.
The newer "Ikea" boats look like you could just hose out the interior and call it good.
The rapid conversion of old "Mom & Pop" affordable marinas into waterfront condos with a few big luxury yachts out front hasn't helped the market for those wanting to get into boating either.

[Chotu]

It’s just natural. The Boat market has been overinflated for a few years.

[Mike OReilly]

I've not been paying very close attention to the used market, although this might change if my pending boat sale falls through. But a friend has been trying to sell his extremely well-found cruiser for over a year now, with no success. He reports that the market for older cruising boats is way down, and shows no sign of bottoming out.

I expected this to happen following the Covid rebound, where people who bought boats during that time (at highly inflated prices) find they no longer want them, now that they can get back to doing what they really want to do.

But this Covid swell rides on top of a larger background wave of aging Baby Boomers selling their boats, and the younger generations that simply aren't as wealthy, or as financially secure. If you can't afford a house, then you sure as heck ain't buying a cruising-level boat.

I think there are other factors as well, such as social change where people have other interests than us oldies. But I think it comes down to basic economics: supply vs demand. There's lots of supply, and little demand, so prices must drop.

[12 sail away]

Hi DJ,

Agree with you and I am not so sure if I will sell my HR... hence I said 5 to 7 year..if ever...but sometimes having kids or friends over or on really hot days I miss the cabin space and possibility to have a nice Bimini ... what I don't miss AT ALL (and remember very well) are the HUGE difference in costs to maintain/replace stuff.

44 foot (whom I owned before) vs a 31 foot is more then a world of difference. But I love sailing/sailyachts and watching them, follow the market etc.
Recently there was an article in the magazine Practical Boat Owner that boats around the 30 foot are the hardest to sell/say goodby from and often stay for decades in the family if maintained well. They are not a 'hole in the water', maintaining is relatively easy since the lack of systems and in case you need to do a drastic overhaul it is digestible.

Maintenance is another topic that pops up with these price dropped boats....reading through the docs and viewing pictures majority lack proper maintenance like bottom paint done in 2022, windlass not working 'but easy to fix', small leakage in engine, no problem, rusty rigging etc.

[12 sail away]

Hi Mike,

Age is definitely a determining factor...hence that I like to see all these youngsters on FB, Youtube and Instagram sailing around in small cheap boats.
I know a lot of experiences sailors including forum members dislike this with arguments as '...no sailing knowledge, BS, no value in their videos, waste of time watching... etc. etc.' but I believe it is good because they get a lot of young followers and at least the beauty of sailing under the attention. Any publicity is good.

[Tupaia]

Borrowed money and insurance.


Europe is in a terrible state economically with virtually everything bought on credit or subscription.


New cats, fully loaded are flying off the shelves. New customers are only interested in the devaluation over 3 years, would prefer all the options as the final return after 3 years is higher. Hardly any interest in sailing qualities. Just life list tick offs.


Other factors, yards in Europe are nearly all internal workforce only ie no DIY no live aboards so any high maintenance or perceived high maintenance boats are deemed too expensive given the labour rates and green regulations.


Marina developments are less profitable than residential and the construction workforce is at a premium due to there being no trade people and regulatory and taxation environment that deters training for employment.

[12 sail away]

Hi Tupaia,

I have no idea about that borrowing for boats. The boat owners I know just bought/paid them, like me, I would never borrow a $ for a boat..hence I have an old boat and not a newer one...If I would ever buy another; I will save first then buy....never finance a depreciating asset/bottomless hole in the water ... But maybe you are right...I often wonder how people are paying these hugely expensive boats...

[Fore and Aft]

12 Sail Away, it seems to be similar here in Brisbane Australia. Teak decks, old engine, old design (no sugar scoop) old rigging and they're way harder to sell. Labour rates and hard stand fees are just killing any sort of project boat unless you do the work yourself. This last six months has seen a dramatic drop in project boats I have surveyed. I would average one every two weeks, now it's lucky if it's one a month. Often clients ring me with stars in their eyes and I give them some homework to do regarding prices. 90% of the time I never hear from them again.
Cheers

[boatman61]

Truth be told there's just to many dedicated followers of fashion..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gfNc9t...b24ga2lua3M%3D

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by 12 sail away

Age is definitely a determining factor...hence that I like to see all these youngsters on FB, Youtube and Instagram sailing around in small cheap boats.
I know a lot of experiences sailors including forum members dislike this with arguments as '...no sailing knowledge, BS, no value in their videos, waste of time watching... etc. etc.' but I believe it is good because they get a lot of young followers and at least the beauty of sailing under the attention. Any publicity is good.

Yes, it’s a good sign seeing all the young Tuber cruisers, but I don’t think that is really any different than in the past. Back in our day, it was the glossy mags and glamorous Travel stories in the Sunday newspaper which spread the cruising lifestyle. I bet many of us here can trace the original cruising spark to a story we read. But a spark needs to land on dry kindling. Without the financial capabilities of a healthy middle class, I only see a shrinking pool of possible cruisers out there.

What’s happening with the boating markets are a mirror of western economies in general. The dramatic growth in wealth inequality means we have a growing number of uber-rich, and an even bigger expansion of the extreme poor. The middle class, which drove the expansion of the cruising lifestyle, has been severely eroded everywhere. So the rich are buying the new catamarans, but the potential buyers of all the older boats just aren’t there in the same numbers.

I suppose, as used boat prices keep falling, we’ll find some price-point which will bring more people back into the market. But it’s not just that younger generations are less wealthy, they are also far less secure in their working arragements. More and more people are working precariously, with little long-term certainty. Gone are the days of defined-benefits pension plans. If workers have any pension at all, it is a defined-contribution variety. A growing number of workers have nothing. At the same time, core living costs like housing, education, healthcare, childcare, have all increased dramatically.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Truth be told there's just to many dedicated followers of fashion..

Don’t talk to me, about fashion.
It just goes in one year, and out the other.

2020's fashion was really terrible,
Probably because, nobody had any taste.
COVID was like fashion…
We started hearing about it in Italy.
It became popular in LA and NYC.
Florida ignored it.
And, it was all made in China, in the end.