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chrisr · 24-10-2021, 14:27

just in case anyone thought this thread was wandering towards an end, i'd like to raise something

seems to me that many comments have confused DESIGN and CONSTRUCTION

eg there is nothing inherently wrong with say spade rudder design (actually the design is much better). what is occasionally a problem is the way the design is constructed

same goes for keels, and all sorts of other modern features

seems to me what we should be saying is that for a boat to be 'blue water capable' she needs to be well constructed. this is far more important than design.

cheers,

ChrisJHC · 24-10-2021, 14:29

To add to the keel discussion: Australian Sailing has now introduced a regular, independent keel inspection to its offshore racing requirements.

**boatman61** · 24-10-2021, 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Na Mara

There is at least one thread on this forum devoted to just the confessionals you call for. I have even coped to a few things there myself. I’ve made so many silly bugger mistakes while sailing that it would take 24 pages on this site just to go through them all. How does any of that invalidate my views on this subject. Indeed is it not precisely because of all that experience, because that’s what mistakes are-experience, that my and other contributors views here are valuable?

I’ll cop to one more mistake that I made. When I bought my Hanse 370e there was a westerly ocean lord for sale in the same marina. It was older and a bit more banged up but fundamentally a good boat and for sale for about 20% less than the Hanse. My mistake that day was listening to all those who said that AWB’s like that Hanse were just as good offshore boats as that ocean lord only faster and more exciting to sail. I should have bought that ocean lord, but then I wouldn’t have made the mistake that I then learnt from that ultimately led to me buying my Regina.

A good sailor is not one who makes no errors, it’s one who rarely makes the same error twice.

Errors are how I learnt, along with improvisation..
Atoll once described it very eloquently in my early days but I'm damned if I remember what it was.. other than it made me grin..
My Confessionals usually happen more or less live or.. tune in for repeats in the appropriate threads every two years.
Everything has a funny side..

MicHughV · 24-10-2021, 16:41

My first boating experience came as youngster...in of all places....the African bush.

I managed to float a 45 gallon steel drum that had been cut lengthwise in half to hold feed for wild game, across a watering hole.

To this edifice, I added a broomstick and a bedsheet, that I had purlioned from my mother's house without her knowledge. These were attached to the drum with odds and ends of string, wire, and anything else I could lay my hands on. Odd pieces of wood were my paddles.

I managed to maneuver this drum to the waters edge, shove this thing off, climb in, without cutting myself to shreds on the sharp sides..and float across this water hole, which was probably about 100' wide. Not sure how I made it, but I did. Once I got to the other side, I left the drum there and walked back. Mission accomplished !!

Needless to say, parental repercussions, arriving later, were severe.

Nonetheless, this sparked my interest in steel boats. My parents, sensing nothing but trouble, saw the event otherwise and shipped me off to a boarding school far away from any watering holes. I think I was 9 years old.

At the boarding school, I got my hands on a National Geographic magazine, which detailed Robin Lee Graham's epic voyage when he was in his late teens. This was a tale for the ages, and I hoped to replicate this, but my dad was not interested in funding any sailing asperations of mine.

Then, out of nowhere, and for no reason I could think of, a magazine arrived with my name on it. It was a Bruce Roberts build your own boat catalog.

I didn't know a sailboat from a stick in the ground. Nonetheless, I leafed thru' this magazine until I came to the BR38 ketch. For reasons I am unable to explain, I fell head over heels over this boat. It simple called my name.

I kept that page for a number of years, until freed from scholastic duties, I set out to build it, which is a story all of it's own. Having never welded in my life, I built it out of steel. I made countless mistakes and errors, but despite that, managed to launch it.

I relate this story to illustrate that people's opinion of what comprises a bluewater boat often spring from unusual sources. I thought my boat was the classic bluewater boat. It carried me safely to wherever I pointed the bow.

What more could I ask??

thomm225 · 27-11-2021, 13:52

Blue water Boat List:

Monohulls
Able 32, 42, 48 * USA Superb quality, expensive. Chuck Paine designs.
Alajuela 33 * USA Good value, well built
Alberg 35 * USA Early f /g boats. Well proven, not expensive.Narrow, short waterlines, graceful overhangs.
Alden 38, 43, 44, 46, 48, 54, 58 USA Classy, well built, beautiful & expensive.
Allied 30, 32, 33, 35, 36, 39, 42 * USA Good value. Functional, practical.
Amel 36 53 www.amel.fr FRA Strong, well designed. Excellent passagemaker, great value. Low maintenance.
Amazon 29, 37, 44 * CAN Steel boats, attractive modern designs.
Amphitrite 43 * FRA Waquiez built, strong & roomy with good storage.Odd deck design, but great boat and good
value.
Annie 28 * USA Every boat built by Morris is a work of art!
Bayfield 29, 30 32, 40 * CAN Good value. A bit "plasticy" interiors but ok.
Bluewater 60 * USA Modern, top quality Chuck Paine design.
Bowman 36 58 * ENG Strong boats. Excellent passagemakers.
Brewer 42 * CAN Improved version of Whitby 42.
Bristol 27 45 * USA Good boats. Later models were better quality.
Bristol Channel Cutter 28 USA Well built, not my personal choice. Good company.
Cabot 36 * CAN Ted Brewer design
Cal 2 30, 34, 36, 39, 40, 2 46, 3 46, 48 * USA Bill Lapworth designs. Many 2-46's have circumnavigated.
Comfortable, reasonably priced but look very carefully at bulkhead attachment.
Caliber 28, 33, 35, 38, 40 Caliber Yachts Official Home Page USA Fairly well built. Michael McCreary designs.
The 47 is not an attractive boat.
Cambria 40, 44, 46 * USA Fast, well built, gorgeous and expensive.
Camper Nicholson 31, 32, 35, 38, 39, 40, 43, 47, 56, 58, 70 * ENG Out of business except for shipbuilding.
Watch for serious blister problems on all models.
Cabo Rico 34, 36, 38, 40, 42, 45, 47, www.caborico.com CRI Crelock and Paine designs. Expensive, semi custom.
Cape Dory all models * USA All models are well designed & built.
Cape George Cutters 31, 36, 38 USA Some owner completed. Strong & fast. Sometimes great value.
Cascade 36, 42 USA 1965-67 design still being built. Narrow. Many owner-finished.
Centurion by Wauquiez (not Beneteau) 36-59 FRA Centurion's built before Wauquiez sold to Beneteau are solid,
but w/limited tankage. Later Beneteau-built models are not appropriate or impressive
except for dockside living.
Cherubini 44, 48, 62 * USA Semi custom boats. Beautiful, great sailing& expensive
Contessa 26 & 32 * CAN, ENG Tania Aebi & B.J. Caldwell both circumnavigated in 26's.
Contest 31, 35, 36, 38, 40, 41, 42, 44, 46, 48, 55, 60 www.contestyacts.com HOL More common in Europe.
Well built, new boats are very attractive.
Countess 44 by Pearson * USA Ancient John Alden design.
Corbin 39 * CAN Roomy and strong, but watch for hull blisters.
Crealock 31, PH 32, 34, 37, 40, 44 by Pacific Seacraft * USA Good value and well built. Graceful overhangs,
canoe sterns, short waterlines means these boats may hobbyhorse upwind.
CSY 37, 44 * USA Sturdy, roomy & reasonably priced but old.
Dana 24 by Pacific Seacraft USA An solid and expensive (for the size) slow pocket ocean cruiser.
Deerfoot Yachts * Var Fast & innovative, aluminum & fiberglass hulls.
Dickerson 36, 37, 40, 41, 50 * USA Nicely proportioned & well built boats. Earlier 36's are very reasonably priced.
Durbeck 46 * USA Big and roomy, long overhangs, short waterline.
Endurance 35, 38, 40 * Var Peter Ibold design, some owner completed. Built by various yards in ENG,
USA & Canada.
Esprit 37 by Nordic * USA Perry design. Comfortable, well proven, good value.
F & C 44 * ARG Modem Frers designed cruising ketch.
Farr Pilot House 50, 56, 60, 63 ReeReviews-Best Product Reviews SWE Sexy, powerful, fast and glamorous.
Excellent quality.First boats were built by Najad.
Fast Passage 39 USA Some built in Canada, some by Tollycraft. WA. Excellent boat.
Fisher 30 46 ENG Sturdy and slow motorsailers. Great for high latitude cruising.
Flicka 20 USA Solidly built Mini ocean cruiser, but slow, slow, slow.
Francis 26 * USA Beautiful design from Morris, an excellent yard.
Fraser 41, 46, 50 * CAN Good modem cruisers.
Freya 39 * USA Good value. Many owner-completed, so quality varies. FAST, full-keel design capable of 200 mpd!
Garcia 46-50+ FRA Gorgeous, fast, semi custom, high quality aluminum.
Gladiateur 33 * FRA Very sturdy, short on tankage, Waquiez built.
Goderich 35, 37,41 * CAN Attractive Brewer steel boats. Short production run.
Gozzard 31, 36, 44 CAN Good design & construction. Totally committed quality company.
Hallberg-Rassy, 31,312,33,35,352,36,38,382,39,41,42,42F,43,45,46,4 9,53,62www.hallberg-rassy.com SWE
Well built, comfortable, with good tankage & storage. Newer Frers designs have better
sailing performance than earlier Enderlien boats. Excellent resale value. Excellent
systems integration and detail.
Halmatic 30 * ENG Similar to Nicholson 31. Watch for blisters.
Hinkley 30-64 USA Attractive, highest quality, and expensive. Hold theirvalue well. Modest tankage & storage.
Hood 38 * FRA Waquiez built, Hood design. Strong, fast, & attractive. Short on tankage.
Centerboard rattles downwind. Solid choice.
Hylas 46,49, 54, 54 Raised Saloon TAI Frers & S & S designs. Good sailing qualities, tankage & storage. High
quality on later Jachney-era models.
Island Packet 32, 35, 350, 37,38, 40, 420, 44, 45 www.ipy.com USA Roomy & comfortable with good tankage
& storage but some odd features. Continually improving. Good value, exc. company.
J-Boats/32, J/42; J/44, J/46, J/160 www.jboats.com USA Fast, light. Excellent sailing performance. Minimal
tankage and storage. Fast downwind, pound heavily upwind. Ck keels!
Jason 35 from Miller Marine * USA Some owner completed. Several have cruised extensively.
Jongert 50, 55, 60, 67, 73 HOL Heavy, expensive, extremely well built steel and aluminum yachts. Not going
to win any races, though!
Justine 36 * USA Gorgeous Paine design, Morris built cruiser.
Kaiulani 34, 38 * USA Lovely steel Brewer & Yohe designs. Very limited production.
Kanter 42, 45, 60, 65 Welcome - kantermarine CAN Steel & aluminum boats, semi custom. Highest Quality.
Chuck Paine & Ted Brewer designs.
LM 27, 28, 290, 30, 315, 32, 380 DEN Some have inside steering. Well built and impressive.
Linda 28 * USA Gorgeous design, Morris quality.
Leigh 30 * USA Very well built, attractive Morris.
Little Harbor 42-90 TAI & USA Ted Hood designed, heavy displacement. Semi custom. Expensive and solid as
a rock.
Luders 33, DOVE * USA Older, well built by Allied.
Malo 36, 38, 39, 45 www.maloyachts.se SWE Quality offshore boats with good sailing performance.
Attractive, reasonably priced. Strong company, good service.
Mariah 31 * USA At least one circumnavigation. Pacific Seacraft built.
Mason 33, 43, 44, 53, 54, 63 * TAI Some of the very best Taiwan built boats.
Mercator 30 * USA Inexpensive, obscure. One has circumnavigated
Moody 38, 42 , 47, 54, 64 Customer Domain * ENG Good designs but some quality-control issues.
Morgan 382, 383 * USA Excellent Ted Brewer design for around $60K.
Morris 26, 28, 30, 32, 34,36, 42, 44, 45, 454, 46, 48.6, 52 www.morrisyachts.com USA Chuck Paine design.
Superb quality, highest quality US yard building cruising boats. Expensive. Semi-custom.
Mystic 57, 60 * ENG Dubois design, Bowman built, beautiful.
Najad 330, 361, 370, 390, 420, 490, 520 www.najad.com SWE Quality, attractive boats. Excellent sailing
performance. Good tankage, storage and high level of craftsmanship.
Nauti Cat Motorsailers 35,40,43, 53, www.nauticat.com FIN Later S & S designed models are much better
performers than earlier tubby models.
Niagara 31, 35, 42 * CAN Well built & roomy. Superb value.
Nordic 34,40,44,45 * USA Attractive boats, some solvable problems with mast step deflection on the 40 & 45.
Norseman 400,447 * TAI Strong, fast, and attractive. Have held their value well.
North Wind 43,50, 58 jawod@northwind.es SPA S&S designs, quality construction, good company.
Ocean 60, 71 * ENG Powerful boats, many have had blister problems
Ocean Cruising 42 * USA Only a few built by Hank Hinkley. Classy.
Orion 27 * USA Offshore capable. Pacific Seacraft built.
Oyster 42, 45, 485,49,53, 55, 56 61, 62, 63, 66, 70, 82, 100 www.oystermarine.com ENG NZL Some have
inside steering. Attractive, expensive and first class! Weak resale value and larger
models make this an excellent, though expensive choice.
Pacific Seacraft 34, 37, 40, 44 * USA Well built boats, good resale. Graceful overhangs.
Pearson 35, 365, 422, 424, 520 * USA Fairly well built, not flashy but reasonably priced.
Passport 41, 415, 435, 44, 456, 470, 50 www.wagnerstevens.com TAI Modem Perry cruising design. Good
storage/tankage.
Pretorien 35 * FRA Strong, fast & attractive. Built by Waquiez. Best value for a boat under $85,000.
Modest tankage.
Rhodes Bounty II * USA Ancient Pearson fiberglass design, classic but very old, so will need tons of upgrading.
Is it worth it?
Regina of Vindo, 38, 43, 49 Reginayachts.se - Yachtbåtar SWE Attractive, well built, quality deck saloon. In a class of
their own for quality and design.
Rival 36 41 * ENG Strong, good-looking and sailing boats.
Rustler 36, 42 ENG Totally impressive, quality boat and company.
Sabre 34, 362,38, 402, 42, 402, 425, 452, www.sabreyachts.com USA Built in Maine, great quality, but limited
tankage and storage.
Sadler 34 * ENG Unsinkable, fast, great performance. Good choice.
Saga 35, 43, 48 www.sagayachts.com * CAN Modern Perry design. Fast innovate and narrow. The 43 is a
very tried and proven design.
Santa Cruz 52 USA Strong, fast and fun!
Saturna 33 * CAN Attractive, Bill Garden designed pilothouse cutter.
Scanmar 35 * SWE Limited production but good design.
Sceptre 41, 43 CAN Modem pilothouse with good performance.
Seawind 30, Seawind II 32' * USA Excellent boats. Good value. First. Built by Allied Yachts
Seguin 44, 51 USA S & S design. Excellent boats. Semi Custom.
Shannon 32, 36, 39, 43,43 II, 47, 53. www.shannonyachts.com USA Good reliable boats. Hold their value well.
Skye 51 * TAI Similar in appearance to Swans. Deck problems.
Southern Cross 28, 31, 35, 39 * USA Good boats. Attractive designs. Fairly well built.
Spencer 35, 42, 44, 54 * CAN Older, solid boats, built in Vancouver, B.C.
Stellar 52 TAI Total quality S&S design, well built, great detail work.
Sundeer 56, 64 * USA Excellent & expensive. Innovative design & incredible performance. Good systems layout.
Built by TPI.
Swan FIN Newest designs aren't well suited for ocean cruising.
Shearwater 39, 45 RSA Strong, traditional and attractive.
Sweden Yachts www.swedenyachts.se SWE Expensive & well built. Racer cruiser designs, short on tankage
and storage.
Tartan 3500, 37, 3700, 41, 4100, 4600, Tartan Yachts * USA Well proven several 37's have
circumnavigated. Some designs have centerboards.
Taswell 43, 49, 56, 58, 60, 72 www.yachtworld.com/taswell TAI Quality, attractive, good sailing performance.
Excellent tankage, storage and design.
Tashiba 31, 36, 40 * TAI Perry designs. From the best yard in Taiwan.
Topper Hermanson 40+ * USA Semi custom steel or aluminum Van de Stadt designs.
Trintella HOL Roomy and well built. Newer designs are aluminum and exp.
Triton 29 by Pearson * USA Good value, sturdy. Earliest F/g production boat.
Valiant 32, 37, 39, 40, 42, 47, 50 www.sailnet.com/valiant USA Major blister problems on Valiant 40 hull numbers
116 250. No problems with any of the excellent Texas built boats. Proven designs, strong
company.
Vancouver 27 * CAN Also built in Taiwan & England.
Vangard 32 * USA Good value. Phil Rhodes design, built by Pearson
Vega 27, by Albin Marine * SWE At least six have circumnavigated. Inexpensive, fast.
Victoria 30, 34 ENG Chuck Paine design, Morris built.
Vindo 29, 34, 38, 39 SWE Attractive, well built, but high maintenance.
Vineyard Vixen 30, 34 * USA Attractive design.
Westerly 26 36 ENG Not flashy, but fairly well built boats.
Westsail 28, 32, 39, 42, 43 * USA Sturdy boats. 39's are rare & attractive. Perry design.
Whitby 42, 44 CAN Brewer designs that sell for $85 120k. Good value. Roomy and fairly well built.
Windship USA Expensive custom boats.
Yankee 26, 30 * USA S & S designed. Inexpensive and capable. Great value.

Catamarans
Atlantic 42, 55 www.chriswhitedesigns.com RSA Chris White design, quality construction.
Catana 401, 431, 471, 521 FRA Good design, but customer service lacks on delivery
Dean 441 RSA Modern, solid, and fast.
Foutntaine Pajot 38, 43, 44,46, 56, 60, 75 www.fountaine-pajot.com FRA Attractive designs, good quality.
Kronos 45 FRA Wauquiez-Beneteau built.
Lagoon 38, 41, 47, 57, 67 FRA Benetau built, good charter boat, O.K cruising boat.
Leopard 38,42,47, 62 RSA Good design, Possibly best built production cat.
Manta 42 www.mantausa.com USA Well designed and built. Great cruising boat.
Outremer 40-64 FRA Fast and strong.
PDQ 32, 36, 42 CAN Long successful production run.
Prout 38, 45 * ENG Reasonably priced, well proven, long production run.
Seawind 33 AUS Quality boat.
Soubise 46 FRA Excellent, super fast and high quality, semi-custom.
Voyage 380, 440, 500, 580 RSA Lightweight, good value

goboatingnow · 27-11-2021, 13:59

The list basically reads like a list of failed or bust boat brands

DeValency · 27-11-2021, 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The list basically reads like a list of failed or bust boat brands

The generalization is not in place. The list is correct and very comprehensive, going through the last 40-50 years models and builders. Naturally, most builders are gone by now, quite few of the builds had serious quality and design issues. There were great builders and models that couldn't survive the downturn and the need for massive investments and marketing over the years, that are still a great buy.

Yet, there are also superb builders and true blue water models, well proven that are still built for decades and launching new modern design models every year, such as - in monos:

- Amel
- Bluewater
- Contest
- Hallberg-Rassy
- Hylas
- Island Packet (for the full keel lovers...)
- Malo
- Moody - only the older British made and designs, before the Hanse takeover, unfortunately, no longer in business
- Najad
- Nauticat (for the pilothouse/motorsailer lovers)
- Oyster
- Swan
- Tartan

I have excluded the builds with limited tankage and inconsistent blue water design/build over the years and models. Also excluded those that are mostly sold in their home market in limited numbers and close to fully custom made.

This is the list (less the Island Packet and Nauticat) I was looking at when searching for my cruising boat few years ago.

thomm225 · 27-11-2021, 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The list basically reads like a list of failed or bust boat brands

Really? Look again.

Bristol

Cape Dory

Vega 27

Alberg

Tartan

Contessa

Westsail

Waquiez

Pearson

Hylas

Pacific Seacraft

Swan

Vancouver

Rustler

Niagara

etc, etc

**Adelie** · 27-11-2021, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The list basically reads like a list of failed or bust boat brands

Just because a maker goes bust, doesn’t mean the product was poor.
Sears went bankrupt, but that doesn’t mean the craftsman tools they sold were poor, just the opposite, they were good enough to have a “lifetime” warranty.