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Old 16-10-2018, 07:27   #226
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by NormanMartin View Post
We helped a Florida friend get a Yankee 30 for $2K.

Yankee 30 refit April to August 2017
appliedsailing.blogspot.com
Would appreciate your input - and anyone who believes the seaworthiness of the boat design matters - comparing the Yankee 30 specifically to Bristol 27, but also others, including the smaller Yankees.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-a-208888.html

I have resources to check out examples of one but not both ATM
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Old 16-10-2018, 07:30   #227
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by oldbilbo View Post
Apropos post #201, I suspect the writer has been a little 'rushed' in his research.
Thank you so much, I think even with more research time, I would not have gathered as good information as that concise yet flavorful précis
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Old 16-10-2018, 07:32   #228
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by WingRyder View Post

I don't plan on a circumnavigation, but I would like to cross the Atlantic to Europe and the Mediterranean in about 7-10 years, and return a couple of years later.

My question is this: Do you NEED a blue water boat to make an occasional blue water passage? Or are "blue water" boats made to withstand continuous ocean passages.
-Harrison.
I would suggest any offshore passage of three days or longer qualifies as "blue water". Consider also that coastal sailing, with shifting winds and tides, in shallow waters, in traffic, and with navigation hazzards, will potencially pose a far greater challenge to your seamanship than following the trades for two weeks in good weather.

A few years ago I was exactly where you are now, and asking pretty much the same question. Out of my (very personal) experience, that's too wide-scope a question to answer meaningfully. You need to narrow it down to your own budget, personal lifestyle requirements, expectations, and cruising preferences, rather than the choice of vessel. Very much up to you.
I haven't read absolutely all postings in this thread, so may repeat what others have said. Notwithstanding, here goes my journey acquired wisdom, if any at all.
1) First comes the sailor, then the boat. As others have pointed out, the Polynesians navigated the Pacific in little more than outrigged open canoes. Most cruising designs will behave adequately if handled competently. Suggest you narrow down initially your choice to a few proven designs chosen by long range cruises. This is only a place to start. You can widen your choice when other requirements and constraints become clearer.
If you are going to do long-distance voyaging (as opposite to overnight marina hoping), elements of design to consider are:
2) Sod's law. Whatever you have on board that may break, it will break, often at the most inconvenient time. You need to be able to fix it yourself with limited hardware resources and few tools. When choosing a design, a KISS approach is required.
3) When outfitting your boat, invest in redundancy. From rig and sail wardrobe, to electronic navigation and safety aids, to energy generation, to ground tackle. Money well spent when you may need it most!
4) Carrying capacity: water, fuel, victuals, amps-hour. This is a function of size, and size is a function of dollars. Do a budgeting exercise on all those. You need to build that equation yourself, and stick to it.
5) Crew. Will determine point 4 above, and will also determine to a large extent where to, how far, and for how long you can go. If you are going to do lots of shorthanded and/or solo sailing, an "easy to handle" rig is essential (e.g. a junk or balance lug sail rig, as opposite to the traditional bermudian sloop, could be something to consider). If there will always be a competent crew on board, it will be easier to handle a more complex rig effectively in challenging conditions.
6) Be ruthless when separating the absolute must have, from the nice to have. Size and budget will be the main constraints, and some choices will be hard to make, particularly when involving safety elements. Once you've made your choice, don't compromise. For such list, think of things like: electric cutlass/winches, water maker, petrol electric generator, UHF transmitter, AIS transceiver (as opposite to receiver only), wind vane steering, etc, etc.
7) Perhaps the most important thing that I learned.... is that I couldn't plan accurately for every outcome, eventuality, or scenario, at the very beginning. In consequence, my planning needed, and still needs, to include generous room for estimated contingency, and enable me to handle unexpected change effectively. This includes all points above. In summary, you may assume that what you intend to be doing in the future, is exactly what you will end up doing. I however, would not bet on it. Make allowance in your planning for that process of evolution. That's where the fun is!
Hope this helps.
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Old 16-10-2018, 07:45   #229
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

John61ct"

A good site for comparing two boats is:

Sail Calculator Pro v3.54 - 3200+ boats

I caution that one should use it to compare similar boats to one another. Comparing a 30 footer to a 40 footer is pointless.

I compared the Yankee 30 to the Bristol 27 and see they are similar.

Next, let's compare the PHRF values. Bristol 27 rates 240 and the Yankee 30 rates 180 meaning the Y30 is faster by about a minute a mile. (240-180=60)

What that really tells the cruiser is that the Bristol will be a slower sailor in light air by about an hour a day of coastal cruising. Probably less weatherly, too. (50 - 60 nm typical day's run... or hoped for day's run)

Lot of info here, too: http://www.wavetrain.net/boats-a-gea...-comfort-ratio

Norm
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Old 16-10-2018, 08:17   #230
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by NormanMartin View Post

I compared the Yankee 30 to the Bristol 27 and see they are similar.

Next, let's compare the PHRF values. Bristol 27 rates 240 and the Yankee 30 rates 180 meaning the Y30 is faster by about a minute a mile. (240-180=60)

What that really tells the cruiser is that the Bristol will be a slower sailor in light air by about an hour a day of coastal cruising. Probably less weatherly, too. (50 - 60 nm typical day's run... or hoped for day's run)

Lot of info here, too: http://www.wavetrain.net/boats-a-gea...-comfort-ratio

Norm
This is one reason why I have stayed with the Bristol 27 over larger faster boats I considered buying that would also need some additional things after purchase.

The extra speed isn't that much in the overall scheme of things when cruising and sometimes you can stay right with or within 5-10 boat lengths of a much faster boat for many miles

More room inside would be nice though as would the 3 extra feet of waterline on the Yankee 30, but you'd almost have to have a diesel or some type inboard engine for the Yankee whereas on the Bristol 27 you could repower for $1500 or so with a new outboard
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Old 16-10-2018, 08:28   #231
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by NormanMartin View Post
What that really tells the cruiser is that the Bristol will be a slower sailor in light air by about an hour a day of coastal cruising. Probably less weatherly, too. (50 - 60 nm typical day's run... or hoped for day's run)
Rather than derailing the larger topic here, I've replied over there

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-a-208888.html

Also to thomm225
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Old 16-10-2018, 08:35   #232
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

a "Blue Water Boat" is as much defined by the sailor as it is by the boat. I have known people that have circumnavigated in anything from a 14' open boat to a converted life boat to 125' "Ship".

Basically, a "Blue Water Boat" is a boat that that can hold enough supplies and can hold together for a (multiple day) long ocean passage.

The thing that some people don't take into account is the fact that the heavier the vessel, the more that vessel fights the seas and the more the seas will effect the wear & tear on the vessel.

NOW!! If the question is, "What is the definition of a COMFORTABLE blue water boat?" everything changes. You see, everyone has a different reason for blue water sailing. For some it is "Pleasure" for others it may be "Challenge".

I would question any statement that a production boat is less "safe" or even less "Capable" than a heavy, purpose built boat. Safety is more about the skipper than it is about the vessel IMO.

This question is sorta like, "What EXACTLY is a "Beautiful woman"?
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Old 16-10-2018, 08:50   #233
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Safety is more about the skipper than it is about the vessel IMO.
OK, but for any given skill level, the design and original build quality do make a difference when the SHTF.

Which is the topic at hand.

No one here thinks just choosing the right boat is sufficient for safety.

Yes there should be more threads on e.g. "how do I acquire the skills and experience to safely solo RTW?"

But that is a separate topic
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Old 16-10-2018, 09:28   #234
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

That is not a silly question, I'm sure it is one of the most considered question a potential long distance sailor would and should ask him/herself.

"Bluewater" cruising or boats per se, are just terms for offshore sailing, and any boat that sails into "blue water" should have certain requirements to survive a sometimes hostile environment, and challenging sailing.....

There is a wonderful old book that has been around since the 60's called "Cruising under sail" by Eric Hiscock, in which he describes the very least a cruising boat should include, i.e. medium to heavy displacement hulls for comfort (over speed) full or virtually full keels which afford more stability and tracking ability, with keel hung rudders for extra strength, strong, practical rigging for ease of use, uncluttered decks, and down below, plenty of ventilation, comfortable sleeping quarters, cooking abilities, storage, safety gear etc... well worth the read....It was my "bible" when I built my boat and got her ready for "blue as possible" cruising...remember, the bottom line is you must be able to have COMPLETE trust in yourself AND your boat, without either of these, you should not go to sea...
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Old 16-10-2018, 10:36   #235
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by Kanani View Post
a "Blue Water Boat" is as much defined by the sailor as it is by the boat. I have known people that have circumnavigated in anything from a 14' open boat to a converted life boat to 125' "Ship".

Basically, a "Blue Water Boat" is a boat that that can hold enough supplies and can hold together for a (multiple day) long ocean passage.

The thing that some people don't take into account is the fact that the heavier the vessel, the more that vessel fights the seas and the more the seas will effect the wear & tear on the vessel.

NOW!! If the question is, "What is the definition of a COMFORTABLE blue water boat?" everything changes. You see, everyone has a different reason for blue water sailing. For some it is "Pleasure" for others it may be "Challenge".

I would question any statement that a production boat is less "safe" or even less "Capable" than a heavy, purpose built boat. Safety is more about the skipper than it is about the vessel IMO.

This question is sorta like, "What EXACTLY is a "Beautiful woman"?
Not.. as blue water is not a beauty contest and Gil Villeneuve driving a Smart on a race track doesn't turn it to a race car either, but you are right about the supplies (except an ocean passage takes weeks instead of days) and a boat without enough storage and tankage isn't one. Besides that it's in the details and equipments as strong enough is true with most sailboats but add to that hatches that are really water tight in bad weather, jacklines set properly, Some kind of reliable self steering etc etc..
Old or new, fin or long keel, laminate or dacron sail and whatever doesn't matter so much but are personal preferences. There's no single truth there.

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Old 16-10-2018, 12:05   #236
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by Kanani View Post
...The thing that some people don't take into account is the fact that the heavier the vessel, the more that vessel fights the seas and the more the seas will effect the wear & tear on the vessel.

NOW!! If the question is, "What is the definition of a COMFORTABLE blue water boat?...
Exactly! One factor overlooked is the effect of heavy displacement, particularly in the ends of the vessel, when encountering waves from ahead of the beam. A light boat will more quickly and abruptly react to the waves, and will ride over them and this is thought to be a less comfortable motion than that of a heavier boat. On the other hand is what happens to that heavier yacht which does NOT ride over the waves but plows directly into them. Given a bigger wave the heavier yacht, (with weight in the ends it is worse) plunges deep into the wave, throwing tons of water to each side, and it's forward progress is dramatically slowed.

Next buoyancy comes into play and this boat, with it's bow deep into the wave face, and nearly stopped, begins to rise, quickly. As the crest passes under the hull the bow will arch skyward, then plunge dramatically into the next wave. Two waves in a row like this and the boat can be totally stopped. It doesn't matter if the heavy boat is sailing or motoring, in these conditions it STOPS.

I've sailed on both types of boats and without a doubt, I prefer the jarring, jerky ride of a boat going over the waves, (BUT GOING), over the hobby horsing heavyweight which plunges deeply into each wave and cannot maintain headway in a seaway.

Nobody is comfortable, but one of us is making progress.
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Old 16-10-2018, 12:14   #237
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pirate Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Exactly! One factor overlooked is the effect of heavy displacement, particularly in the ends of the vessel, when encountering waves from ahead of the beam. A light boat will more quickly and abruptly react to the waves, and will ride over them and this is thought to be a less comfortable motion than that of a heavier boat. On the other hand is what happens to that heavier yacht which does NOT ride over the waves but plows directly into them. Given a bigger wave the heavier yacht, (with weight in the ends it is worse) plunges deep into the wave, throwing tons of water to each side, and it's forward progress is dramatically slowed.

Next buoyancy comes into play and this boat, with it's bow deep into the wave face, and nearly stopped, begins to rise, quickly. As the crest passes under the hull the bow will arch skyward, then plunge dramatically into the next wave. Two waves in a row like this and the boat can be totally stopped. It doesn't matter if the heavy boat is sailing or motoring, in these conditions it STOPS.

I've sailed on both types of boats and without a doubt, I prefer the jarring, jerky ride of a boat going over the waves, (BUT GOING), over the hobby horsing heavyweight which plunges deeply into each wave and cannot maintain headway in a seaway.

Nobody is comfortable, but one of us is making progress.
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Old 16-10-2018, 12:21   #238
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Exactly! One factor overlooked is the effect of heavy displacement, particularly in the ends of the vessel, when encountering waves from ahead of the beam. A light boat will more quickly and abruptly react to the waves, and will ride over them and this is thought to be a less comfortable motion than that of a heavier boat. On the other hand is what happens to that heavier yacht which does NOT ride over the waves but plows directly into them. Given a bigger wave the heavier yacht, (with weight in the ends it is worse) plunges deep into the wave, throwing tons of water to each side, and it's forward progress is dramatically slowed.

Next buoyancy comes into play and this boat, with it's bow deep into the wave face, and nearly stopped, begins to rise, quickly. As the crest passes under the hull the bow will arch skyward, then plunge dramatically into the next wave. Two waves in a row like this and the boat can be totally stopped. It doesn't matter if the heavy boat is sailing or motoring, in these conditions it STOPS.

I've sailed on both types of boats and without a doubt, I prefer the jarring, jerky ride of a boat going over the waves, (BUT GOING), over the hobby horsing heavyweight which plunges deeply into each wave and cannot maintain headway in a seaway.

Nobody is comfortable, but one of us is making progress.
You definitely have to do more planning with some boats over others even in short 30-40 miles sails.

My old heavy full keel boat doesn't point worth a crap so you have to work with it. I go where I know the wind will be later in the day and tack on it.

Also, my boat does more plowing thru the waves than bouncing over them which I really like after years on fast light weight boats both sail and power that are always bouncing around over waves and wearing me down
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Old 16-10-2018, 12:31   #239
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Exactly! One factor overlooked is the effect of heavy displacement, particularly in the ends of the vessel, when encountering waves from ahead of the beam. A light boat will more quickly and abruptly react to the waves, and will ride over them and this is thought to be a less comfortable motion than that of a heavier boat. On the other hand is what happens to that heavier yacht which does NOT ride over the waves but plows directly into them. Given a bigger wave the heavier yacht, (with weight in the ends it is worse) plunges deep into the wave, throwing tons of water to each side, and it's forward progress is dramatically slowed.

Next buoyancy comes into play and this boat, with it's bow deep into the wave face, and nearly stopped, begins to rise, quickly. As the crest passes under the hull the bow will arch skyward, then plunge dramatically into the next wave. Two waves in a row like this and the boat can be totally stopped. It doesn't matter if the heavy boat is sailing or motoring, in these conditions it STOPS.

I've sailed on both types of boats and without a doubt, I prefer the jarring, jerky ride of a boat going over the waves, (BUT GOING), over the hobby horsing heavyweight which plunges deeply into each wave and cannot maintain headway in a seaway.

Nobody is comfortable, but one of us is making progress.
One day you might be surpriced and find out that can be reversed in other conditions and not all boats resembling each others are the same. All depends of multiple factors not to fit in thousands of book pages (but here you have state the ultimate truth in a quarter of one).

My apologies for you (and Polux) but I can't stand single dogma missionaries when the truth is not that simple..

Teddy
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Old 16-10-2018, 12:42   #240
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Yes, no objective formula for such complexity

Without tons of wide-ranging experience, the answer to the OP question for me is,

The blue-water boats are those that the members I trust tell me are such.
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