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Old 06-12-2021, 13:31   #466
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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20 years ago the seacocks and skin fittings/spigots fitted were better. Within the last ten years the quality of many skin fittings and seacocks of European boats has fallen. I blame the RCD code for this. It is a poor minimum standard.



A surveyor I know was looking at a Beneteau some three years ago when he noticed weep sign from a hose attached to a seacock. He grasped the hose and twisted to see if the hose was loose whereupon the spigot snapped off in his hand. The pink de-zincification was clearly evident. It was a DZR seacock - good - with a thin plumbing quality spigot for the hose - bad!


Fortunatly the boat was in the slings of the boat lift for survey.


The RCD is in place since 1998. The med is one of the saltiest seas in the world and charters leave the boats in all year round

You simply donít see then pulling seacocks

The ABYC bonding and earth bonding strategy is wrong , badly thought out and leads to excessive corrosion of tru hulls thereby needing high materials

European boats donít bond tru hulls and use DNZ brass. The Evidence is they last well in advance of the requirements
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Old 06-12-2021, 14:00   #467
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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as I'm looking forward for Atlantic crossing to east in january..
Should be an interesting trip, were are you leaving from and intent on arriving?

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Old 06-12-2021, 14:59   #468
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Should be an interesting trip, were are you leaving from and intent on arriving?

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Le Marin, Martinque to Las Palmas, thou I'm waiting for confirmation, and airline tickets. The boat is familiar for me, been many times my head in the bilge fixing and whatever..
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Old 06-12-2021, 15:46   #469
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The RCD is in place since 1998. The med is one of the saltiest seas in the world and charters leave the boats in all year round

You simply don’t see then pulling seacocks

The ABYC bonding and earth bonding strategy is wrong , badly thought out and leads to excessive corrosion of tru hulls thereby needing high materials

European boats don’t bond tru hulls and use DNZ brass. The Evidence is they last well in advance of the requirements





Read, mark and inwardly digest - in the last ten years some RCD certified boats have been fitted with BRASS skin, seacock and spigots, not DZR.


The RCD allows this as the exact specification of material for these important fittings is not in the standard. They just have to have a service life of five years.



Read the well respected Vyv Cox Engineering stuff. He is a metallurgist who specialises in the marine industry.


Many, many cheap Far East brass seacocks, skin fittings and spigots are fitted as OE by boatbuilders and sold by chandlers world wide as aftermarket fittings.


I am very glad my USA built vessel uses proper bronze jobs with virtually indestructable plastic hose spigots.

My cousins husband, the surveyor, is scathing about this cost cutting on some high volume European leisure boats.
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Old 06-12-2021, 16:03   #470
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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The ABYC bonding and earth bonding strategy is wrong , badly thought out and leads to excessive corrosion of tru hulls thereby needing high materials
Quite true.
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Old 06-12-2021, 16:14   #471
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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IMHO, crew endurance is of far more importance than the boat.
Actually, the boat is more important especially if you do not have a crew.
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Old 06-12-2021, 16:20   #472
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What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotrax View Post
Read, mark and inwardly digest - in the last ten years some RCD certified boats have been fitted with BRASS skin, seacock and spigots, not DZR.


The RCD allows this as the exact specification of material for these important fittings is not in the standard. They just have to have a service life of five years.



Read the well respected Vyv Cox Engineering stuff. He is a metallurgist who specialises in the marine industry.


Many, many cheap Far East brass seacocks, skin fittings and spigots are fitted as OE by boatbuilders and sold by chandlers world wide as aftermarket fittings.


I am very glad my USA built vessel uses proper bronze jobs with virtually indestructable plastic hose spigots.

My cousins husband, the surveyor, is scathing about this cost cutting on some high volume European leisure boats.


Clearly you havenít read the relevant ISO standard referenced in the directive. There is no mention of a ď 5 year service life ď

Iso 9093 -2018

Click image for larger version

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ID:	249435

What this means is that after 5 years in service there must be no deterioration , that in no way means a 5 year service life.

Note that the latest version ISO 9093-2020 requires that brass fittings MUST be DNZ ( note the reference to a time period has been removed as it was widely misinterpreted and hard to qualify )

The test for the amount of dezincification allowed is also specified and is quite rigorous.

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1638833527.542100.jpg
Views:	37
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ID:	249436

Europeans production boats dominate the world for good reason they are well built , popular , comfortable and fast.

The US largely isnt a sailing nation its dominates in fast sportsboats ( though more of these are now European owned like 4 winns etc )

Again the proof is in the charter companies are NOT replacing seacocks after 5 years in the med

Again ABYC bonding is wrong for grp boats and places undue corrosion stress on tru hulls. On grp a completely isolated tru hull is the best option this is the route taken by European builders and it has proven successful.
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Old 07-12-2021, 03:51   #473
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Clearly you haven’t read the relevant ISO standard referenced in the directive. There is no mention of a “ 5 year service life “

Iso 9093 -2018

Attachment 249435

What this means is that after 5 years in service there must be no deterioration , that in no way means a 5 year service life.

Note that the latest version ISO 9093-2020 requires that brass fittings MUST be DNZ ( note the reference to a time period has been removed as it was widely misinterpreted and hard to qualify )

The test for the amount of dezincification allowed is also specified and is quite rigorous.

Attachment 249436

Europeans production boats dominate the world for good reason they are well built , popular , comfortable and fast.

The US largely isnt a sailing nation its dominates in fast sportsboats ( though more of these are now European owned like 4 winns etc )

Again the proof is in the charter companies are NOT replacing seacocks after 5 years in the med

Again ABYC bonding is wrong for grp boats and places undue corrosion stress on tru hulls. On grp a completely isolated tru hull is the best option this is the route taken by European builders and it has proven successful.





So the reported and verified instances of Brass fittings fitted to European boats are not true?


As you are surely aware, the builders of these vessels self certify. There is no checking of individual boats during or after build. Or, indeed, at anytime.


The instances of poor quality are perhaps in the past, but it is clear it happened, and recently.


Just check with my cousins husband. It was a six year old Bennie.


It came apart when he twisted the hose to see if the clips were loose!


Many fine and well built boats that give perfect service come from European yards, but they are not perhaps the paragons of virtue you believe them to be.


When skin fittings, seacocks and hose spigots can be purchased that will last the life of a boat, why skimp on such important fittings?
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Old 07-12-2021, 04:29   #474
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Just read on the WCC webpage that a Hanse 588 has just been abandoned mid Atlantic on the ARC with catastrophic steering failure.


All crew taken off to nearby yachts safely.


Was the boat suitable for purpose?


Read the report and make your own mind up.


Hanse use Aluminium rudder shafts AFAIK.


A Hanse was lost in the Irish Sea some years ago when the rudder shaft broke and the rudder fell off.


Not for me, I am a wimp.


But a prudent wimp........................
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Old 07-12-2021, 08:10   #475
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
...

Again the proof is in the charter companies are NOT replacing seacocks after 5 years in the med
...
...this is proof of something entirely different!!!
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Old 07-12-2021, 09:31   #476
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by rotrax View Post
Just read on the WCC webpage that a Hanse 588 has just been abandoned mid Atlantic on the ARC with catastrophic steering failure.


All crew taken off to nearby yachts safely.


Was the boat suitable for purpose?


Read the report and make your own mind up.


Hanse use Aluminium rudder shafts AFAIK.


A Hanse was lost in the Irish Sea some years ago when the rudder shaft broke and the rudder fell off.

,
Not for me, I am a wimp.


But a prudent wimp........................
Rotax, Now I have found the report I read which described the steering issue. I am surprised, from other photos of this vessel the steering system seemed well engineered and robust.

Can you provide a link to the report which describes what happened to the steering?(Correction, I found it, OK, I was thinking of the vessel which was abandoned previously on a more northern crossing.

Personally I feel that this Hanse 588 should be entirely suitable for the purpose (crossing oceans). But this report makes me want to inspect the steering system closely.

Note, My vessel has an aluminum rudder shaft, it is 43 years old, and has 43 years of hard sailing including many rough passages all over the world. Many materials are suitable for rudder shaft construction, it is the engineering, not the material.
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Old 07-12-2021, 10:05   #477
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

I am sure that is what the Skipper and crew thought too.


I take your point re the engineering. Also,of course, there are many different types/grades of aluminium.



My old motorcycle racing mate Alf Hagon made Aluminium monocoque racing chassis, including a European Championship winning sidecar cross three wheeled version which was put into series production. He found the hard way which worked in practice, rather than what the sales guys wanted him to use.
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Old 07-12-2021, 12:27   #478
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Note, My vessel has an aluminum rudder shaft, it is 43 years old, and has 43 years of hard sailing including many rough passages all over the world. Many materials are suitable for rudder shaft construction, it is the engineering, not the material.

I think the very fact of IOR racing cruisers like a Serendipity 43 should put the final stake in the whole notion that there is one set of specifications, on paper anyway,* for what exactly a "blue water boat" is.

Thanks, Fred, for your updates to that Sailboat data page.

*other than that unreal Balance/Displacement figure
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Old 07-12-2021, 16:37   #479
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Sobering to think that the first non stop circumnavigation - RKJ - used what he had, a 32 footer, 28 on the waterline, built in Bombay of local timber, Indian Teak, using traditional methods and tools, adze, saw and bow drill.


Suhali was not really suitable but by superlative seamanship, skills learned as a Cadet in the Merchant Service and determination he got round.


His reply to the Falmouth Customs Officer is a classic. " Where from? " asked the customs guy.


" Falmouth! " came the reply, almost, but not quite keeping a straight face.


So, with the right skills and mindset, a tough but almost antique boat, a determined sailor can cope with serious ocean crossings.


Put a weak boat in the equasion and its not so simple.


What is the weak link, the skipper or the boat?


And it was ever thus..................
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Old 07-12-2021, 20:47   #480
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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What is the weak link, the skipper or the boat?
It is interesting to note that in the recent golden globe reenactment race which specified boats of similar design (if not construction) to Suhali (sp?), quite a few of the boats failed to finish, and it was most often due to some failure in the boat rather than in the skipper (all of whom were pretty experienced and competent, especially compared to most of us WAFIs).

I think that ALL of those boats would have met the "certified by CF as blue water" designation... The winner and several other chaps sailed absolutely splendid passages, all without the aid of electronics or outside help (at least in theory), so kudos to them all, winners and DFL alike.

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