What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

[Emoyeni]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Dear Emoyeni, I didn't have the same reaction to this interview. To me the guy is doing nothing more than playing to the same crowd with the same tired old myths, a fear monger, who is providing confirmation bias to people who already have heard his point of view, which, by the way, is not confirmed by real life. According to him the only thing that meets his standard is the boat he is building and selling. How convenient.

Just one example: He talks about a study which showed hundreds of keels falling off boats, but I didn't see any reference to that study, I doubt if it exists.

And he talks about "blue water boats" being some sort of standard, but there is not one except ones which people make up to support their pre-established views.

Good point, there is a pretty high conflict of interest there. Additionally, I wonder how much stronger his keel actually is in the event of a grounding, wouldn't the forces just shear off the fibreglass jutting down to the lead? In his defence, I do agree with the point of twin rudders having the drawback of tripling the chance of hitting a coral head or some object in the water.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Emoyeni

Good point, there is a pretty high conflict of interest there. Additionally, I wonder how much stronger his keel actually is in the event of a grounding, wouldn't the forces just shear off the fibreglass jutting down to the lead? In his defence, I do agree with the point of twin rudders having the drawback of tripling the chance of hitting a coral head or some object in the water.

Just to follow along on this "keel" point:

We don't need to belabor the point , "is it stronger?". Just "stonger" if the one you are comparing it to is already plenty strong, is a waste of material.

What do we do, bow down to anything which is "stronger"? What if he came up with a keel which was solid iron from the bottom of the keel to the turn of the bilge. Would we all say, "Wow, stonger, we like that."

How about a telephone pole mast with 24 shrouds 1/2 inch thick? "Wow, stronger, we like that."

At what point do we concede that the designers and their engineers can figure out, (HAVE figured out over the last 50-60 years, if not 100 years), what strength is required. Yes, some have failed in this task, and some boats have been previously damaged and not repaired. In both cases boats have been lost (not all). But the numbers are low.

We all must stop falling for the song and dance which says, regardless of anything else, if it is stronger it is better.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by michaeld

Thomm25, you missed Kaufman.

The list is from the Mahina Offshore site........which I do not think still posts the list due to unhappy boat owners like we have seen above.

It amazes me though at times that a Bristol 27 seems to be on all recommended offshore boat lists ....... that is until the time I got caught in 35 knot winds tide against wind with too much sail up and then saw just how well the boat handled it even though waves were breaking into the cockpit and my dodger got broken

[Whokickamoocow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Just to follow along on this "keel" point:

We don't need to belabor the point , "is it stronger?". Just "stonger" if the one you are comparing it to is already plenty strong, is a waste of material.

What do we do, bow down to anything which is "stronger"? What if he came up with a keel which was solid iron from the bottom of the keel to the turn of the bilge. Would we all say, "Wow, stonger, we like that."

How about a telephone pole mast with 24 shrouds 1/2 inch thick? "Wow, stronger, we like that."

At what point do we concede that the designers and their engineers can figure out, (HAVE figured out over the last 50-60 years, if not 100 years), what strength is required. Yes, some have failed in this task, and some boats have been previously damaged and not repaired. In both cases boats have been lost (not all). But the numbers are low.

We all must stop falling for the song and dance which says, regardless of anything else, if it is stronger it is better.

This.
I had a swing keel, 10' draft, 2000kgs and a single bolt that held it in with an ertalyte bearing. The design dates back to the 80's and to date there has not been one reported failure. A hydrostatic release valve is used to vent pressure in the advent of a hard enough impact like a shipping container. So rather than rely on making the keel indestructible, they opted for dissipating the shock loads to avoid structural damage instead.
We got to test it once when we hit a whale hard enough that it felt like a car crash. The release valve worked as advertised, it folded back a good 6' in the impact and the worst damage was a minor hydraulic leak that required replacing a seal on the ram shaft and an abraded leading edge of the keel from the barnacles.
An example of how engineering can help avoid the need for simple brute strength .

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

And better hardware. Like the winches might be the same brand on, let's say, X-yacht and Bavaria just look the size of them.. and tell me there's no difference.

What’s the difference you see , the size will be appropriate. Bavaria will get huge discounts compared to HR.

The Volvo or yanmar engine will be the same brand , seldon masts , harken deck gear etc etc.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I find the best place to sleep on a boat in a seaway is in the middle of the boat, on a settee or sea berth about 60% back from the bow either on the lee side or behind lee cloths. This is where the motion is least.



It also helps if it is within a few feet of the companionway so that communication between the watchstander and the off watch is easy.

Quarter berths arnt great. Too close to the hatch. Pilot berths amidships where there for a reason. A good straight 6’6” settee berth is dammed close to pilot berth.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

In regards to a "Blue water boat", the term "Exactly" is quite elusive, being subjected to all kinds of "feelings".
But, I've managed to sort out some of what I like.
First, I want a boat that when you are down below you are "in" the boat, rather than "on" the boat.
I don't want the water line to be at my ankles, or even below my knees, somewhere around the middle of thigh gives one a better motion for any belowdecks activity, or sleeping.
Then, you feel as though you are rotating in place as opposed to being "thrown" back-an-forth.
Second, a boat that has a lot of boat under the water, not floating "on" the water.
Many years ago, I spent a lot of time sailing on the boat that I've pictured.
She was 40', ~34,000lbs, and with 14,000lbs ballast on ~7' draft she could stand-up to the wind and move-on-out, no slouch in lighter air either, and with such an easy motion.
A subsequent owner sailed her the equivalent of around the world ~1-1/2 times over 13 years, a good portion of the time single handed.
Once, caught in a SP typhoon, after doing all he could, and exhausted, he tied himself to the cabin sole.
He later said, "I did all I could for the boat, now she has to do for herself".
To this day, I have never been on a boat of that size that gave me such a feeling of "We can get home, no matter what".

A boat with so much wetted area has to be a slouch you can’t have it every way.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

In regards to a "Blue water boat", the term "Exactly" is quite elusive, being subjected to all kinds of "feelings".
But, I've managed to sort out some of what I like.
First, I want a boat that when you are down below you are "in" the boat, rather than "on" the boat.
I don't want the water line to be at my ankles, or even below my knees, somewhere around the middle of thigh gives one a better motion for any belowdecks activity, or sleeping.
Then, you feel as though you are rotating in place as opposed to being "thrown" back-an-forth.
Second, a boat that has a lot of boat under the water, not floating "on" the water.
Many years ago, I spent a lot of time sailing on the boat that I've pictured.
She was 40', ~34,000lbs, and with 14,000lbs ballast on ~7' draft she could stand-up to the wind and move-on-out, no slouch in lighter air either, and with such an easy motion.
A subsequent owner sailed her the equivalent of around the world ~1-1/2 times over 13 years, a good portion of the time single handed.
Once, caught in a SP typhoon, after doing all he could, and exhausted, he tied himself to the cabin sole.
He later said, "I did all I could for the boat, now she has to do for herself".
To this day, I have never been on a boat of that size that gave me such a feeling of "We can get home, no matter what".

This sort of explains why my old an inexpensive Bristol 27 is on most Blue Water Boat lists. Most of it is under the water and it sits low in the water

That and also that it is quite over built plus has a rather lower aspect sail plan at 30' or so as compared to boats with 40' + masts where the winds would be strong

Some were saying on another thread how seaworthy a J/30 was because one didn't sink during Fastnet 79 which is good but no way is a J/30 as seaworthy as a Contessa 32 which some have called a "submarine."

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What’s the difference you see , the size will be appropriate. Bavaria will get huge discounts compared to HR.

The Volvo or yanmar engine will be the same brand , seldon masts , harken deck gear etc etc.

Ok, ok - we understand now. Bavaria is definitely a top line ‘blue water’ boat! 🙂 (especially for the totally inexperienced boat drivers)

Guess Hallberg-Rassy and alike should hurry up and go out of business based on your serious fully informed analysis.

[Montanan]

Time for a Troll:

Blue Water Yachts, The Worlds Largest MacGregor Dealer.
Also a Tattoo Sailboat dealer

NORTH AMERICAS LARGEST TRAILERABLE SAILBOAT DEALER FOR NEARLY 30 YEARS.

Blue Water Yachts

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DeValency

Ok, ok - we understand now. Bavaria is definitely a top line ‘blue water’ boat! [emoji846] (especially for the totally inexperienced boat drivers)



Guess Hallberg-Rassy and alike should hurry up and go out of business based on your serious fully informed analysis.

Given Bavaria’s cross ocean all the time I see no flaw in my analysis. Toyotas and Mercedes both make it down the motorway too

A boat design cannot save “ an inexperienced boat driver “. This is a dangerous fallacy perpetuated by armchair theorists. Such a boat doesn’t exist. The best way to handle this is to tradition from inexperienced to experienced in a series of graduated undertakings.

I’ve delivered bennys and Jenny’s through weather that very few cruising sailors actually ever have to deal with. The sea will destroy any small boat if the situation presents itself.

High end yachts are “ high end “ for many reasons, build costs being the key one, profit margins being the other , but also choice on interior wood , method of construction ( largely manual over series production) , and a myriad of other factors that have nothing to do with “ blue water “ sailing ( whatever that stupid moniker means ) .

A good sailer will get most boats to where he wants to go. A bad one can’t get any there. So the take away is don’t overly fret about the boat , learn to sail it. .

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What’s the difference you see , the size will be appropriate. Bavaria will get huge discounts compared to HR.

The Volvo or yanmar engine will be the same brand , seldon masts , harken deck gear etc etc.

Appropriate you say? Same size boats, the other one has two sizes sturdier gear. Bigger winches, bigger blokks and everything included..

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Appropriate you say? Same size boats, the other one has two sizes sturdier gear. Bigger winches, bigger blokks and everything included..

It all depends on what’s needed not what simply installed. I’ve not , as a general rule , found the deck gear in AWBs wanting , yes certain specifics “ nice to haves” might be nice but that’s different

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Given Bavaria’s cross ocean all the time I see no flaw in my analysis.
snip..

Yeah, and looking for a weather window they dare to do that. So basicly they are capable for ocean crossings but so are some row boats, rafts and reed boats..

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Yeah, and looking for a weather window they dare to do that. So basicly they are capable for ocean crossings but so are some row boats, rafts and reed boats..

And I'm not against anyone doing so. It's actually pretty good decision to do, to wait for favourable circumstances. But as allways, horses for courses, as I'm looking forward for Atlantic crossing to east in january..