What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

[DeValency]

Not interested in arguing with angry people... and definitely would not waste time and space by copying chapters from credible design and engineering resources, including Bob Perry (not the designer of any of my present or past boats!). The small list of items to look at, is made for those interested in facts - from there, if interested, they can easily get further details.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

If you want to search for a list of boats based on a few specific specs, you can use "Part 4, Find Your Ideal Boat" of this database: Sail Calculator Pro v3.54 - 3200+ boats

You can zero in on one, or all, of these factors, and you can weight them as you desire: Capsize Ratio, Hull Speed, SA/Disp, Disp/LWL, LWL/Beam, Motion Comfort, Pounds/Inch

Yes, individual stats don't tell a story about a boat, but it's a useful tool for zeroing in on boats you might be interested in once you know what you really want. Plus, it's hours of fun .

OK Mike, tell me what criteria you could put into that calculator which would return the list of boats presented above, or even 10% of that list.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by wingssail

OK Mike, tell me what criteria you could put into that calculator which would return the list of boats presented above, or even 10% of that list.

I have no idea. Sounds like something you should play with, to see if you can make it work.

Funny thing about sleeping in the V-berth when heading upwind; I do it all the time. I actually find my boat pretty comfortable in most sea/wind states. Eventually it can get unfcomfortable, but most of the time the motion in my Rafiki is pretty easy, and I find the rise and fall to be pretty soothing.

This was not the case in my previous lighter-displacement, more flat-hulled boat. There I barely ever used the V-berth because of it's rough ride.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by DeValency

Not interested in arguing with angry people... and definitely would not waste time and space by copying chapters from credible design and engineering resources, including Bob Perry (not the designer of any of my present or past boats!). The small list of items to look at, is made for those interested in facts - from there, if interested, they can easily get further details.

Yes, I am angry. Disgusted is more like it.

First we have a list of boats for which there is no consistent set of attributes which would justify them being on the list and then we have a list of criteria which are totally unmeasurable and mostly don't match the boats anyhow.

Finally an allusion to un-named chapters which supposedly would support the above faulty premises.

I don't blame you for not wanting to defend them.

By the way, Perry is a friend of mine, and the designer of one of my previous boats, a very fine thoroughbred ocean racing boat, and of another boat which I helped commission and on which I sailed widely, including Sydney Hobart in which we were fourth. Both of those boats violated almost all of the supposed criteria for "blue water boats", and by the way, had beautiful motion upwind.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by wingssail

In the first place I'd say sleeping in the bow of any boat going upwind is pretty dumb and likely to be uncomfortable regardless of bottom shape. You need belts holding you down.

Secondly, if you needed to spend three weeks going upwind to get to your destination and found the "flat" bottom boat uncomfortable, how would you feel about three months which is what it would probably take with a full keel deep v'd "blue water" boat, if you ever got there. But I know people who have sailed for three weeks upwind and I can tell you, if you don't have a boat that sails to windward, it is a moot point.

Ha! I completely agree! The skipper had the nice, calm, quiet aft cabin and I was the lowly crew stuck up in the bow, and not even all the way forward in the pipe berths, and yes I should have had a strap to hold me down, half the time I was floating in mid air! I would have traded for 3 months in a comfortable boat!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I have no idea. Sounds like something you should play with, to see if you can make it work.

Nope, couldn't be done because the boats onthat list have nothing in common across all the boat on it.

Funny thing about sleeping in the V-berth when heading upwind; I do it all the time. I actually find my boat pretty comfortable in most sea/wind states. Eventually it can get unfcomfortable, but most of the time the motion in my Rafiki is pretty easy, and I find the rise and fall to be pretty soothing.

That is interesting

This was not the case in my previous lighter-displacement, more flat-hulled boat. There I barely ever used the V-berth because of it's rough ride.

I wonder what actual sea states and points of sail work or don't work for that boat?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Ha! I completely agree! The skipper had the nice, calm, quiet aft cabin and I was the lowly crew stuck up in the bow, and not even all the way forward in the pipe berths, and yes I should have had a strap to hold me down, half the time I was floating in mid air! I would have traded for 3 months in a comfortable boat!

I find the best place to sleep on a boat in a seaway is in the middle of the boat, on a settee or sea berth about 60% back from the bow either on the lee side or behind lee cloths. This is where the motion is least.

It also helps if it is within a few feet of the companionway so that communication between the watchstander and the off watch is easy.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Nope, couldn't be done because the boats onthat list have nothing in common across all the boat on it.

I really only scanned the list looking for my boat. It wasn't there, so naturally I think the list is silly . Seriously though, I don't think any of this is very serious.

Originally Posted by wingssail

I wonder what actual sea states and points of sail work or don't work for that boat?

What doesn't work is when wind is highly erratic, or the sea state become very short and steep. When the wavelength is just short of my LWL, my boat can start to wallow, especially in lighter airs. That's not fun. Otherwise, she tends to cut through, or sort of mush/slide down bit seas; kinda like hiking down a steep scree-slope.

We have a proper sea berth, but both my spouse and I prefer the V-berth in all but the worst conditions. It's very comfortable.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I find the best place to sleep on a boat in a seaway is in the middle of the boat, on a settee or sea berth about 60% back from the bow either on the lee side or behind lee cloths. This is where the motion is least.

It also helps if it is within a few feet of the companionway so that communication between the watchstander and the off watch is easy.

Yeah it's interesting, and I think is relevant to what makes a bluewater boat. I find that the pivot point for boats I have sailed is aft of the center as you say so that the quarter berth is the best spot. The only negative is that if you're on the leeward side and someone opens the hatch (and there is no dodger) you might get a waterfall on your head.

[Bowdrie]

In regards to a "Blue water boat", the term "Exactly" is quite elusive, being subjected to all kinds of "feelings".
But, I've managed to sort out some of what I like.
First, I want a boat that when you are down below you are "in" the boat, rather than "on" the boat.
I don't want the water line to be at my ankles, or even below my knees, somewhere around the middle of thigh gives one a better motion for any belowdecks activity, or sleeping.
Then, you feel as though you are rotating in place as opposed to being "thrown" back-an-forth.
Second, a boat that has a lot of boat under the water, not floating "on" the water.
Many years ago, I spent a lot of time sailing on the boat that I've pictured.
She was 40', ~34,000lbs, and with 14,000lbs ballast on ~7' draft she could stand-up to the wind and move-on-out, no slouch in lighter air either, and with such an easy motion.
A subsequent owner sailed her the equivalent of around the world ~1-1/2 times over 13 years, a good portion of the time single handed.
Once, caught in a SP typhoon, after doing all he could, and exhausted, he tied himself to the cabin sole.
He later said, "I did all I could for the boat, now she has to do for herself".
To this day, I have never been on a boat of that size that gave me such a feeling of "We can get home, no matter what".

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

In regards to a "Blue water boat", the term "Exactly" is quite elusive, being subjected to all kinds of "feelings".
But, I've managed to sort out some of what I like.
First, I want a boat that when you are down below you are "in" the boat, rather than "on" the boat.
I don't want the water line to be at my ankles, or even below my knees, somewhere around the middle of thigh gives one a better motion for any belowdecks activity, or sleeping.
Then, you feel as though you are rotating in place as opposed to being "thrown" back-an-forth.
Second, a boat that has a lot of boat under the water, not floating "on" the water.
Many years ago, I spent a lot of time sailing on the boat that I've pictured.
She was 40', ~34,000lbs, and with 14,000lbs ballast on ~7' draft she could stand-up to the wind and move-on-out, no slouch in lighter air either, and with such an easy motion.
A subsequent owner sailed her the equivalent of around the world ~1-1/2 times over 13 years, a good portion of the time single handed.
Once, caught in a SP typhoon, after doing all he could, and exhausted, he tied himself to the cabin sole.
He later said, "I did all I could for the boat, now she has to do for herself".
To this day, I have never been on a boat of that size that gave me such a feeling of "We can get home, no matter what".

Your post reminded me of a story of all the virtues and performance of the Bristol Channel Cutter I read about many years ago. I confess to being a bit of a snob with a bias against all old designs when I was younger, and the article made me rethink my prejudices!
The Bristol Channel Cutter 28 Sailboat : Bluewaterboats.org
https://www.bristolchannelcutter.org/

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Yeah it's interesting, and I think is relevant to what makes a bluewater boat. I find that the pivot point for boats I have sailed is aft of the center as you say so that the quarter berth is the best spot. The only negative is that if you're on the leeward side and someone opens the hatch (and there is no dodger) you might get a waterfall on your head.

Well Don,This brings us to an interesting point:

A lot of what makes a "Blue Water Boat" is how it is prepared for blue water sailing.

Your example of how lack of a dodger could allow a bucket of water onto the sleeping off watch crew member. So a good dodger and a companionway hatch which keeps water out is important. Even a Rustler 42 with no proper dodger would be less than fully suitable for blue water sailing.

There are many things we can do (or fail to do) which determine how our boats are for making ocean passages.

Things like proper reefing systems which can be used in bad weather. Like decks cleared of obstructions and cleared of poorly lashed down items. Like properly sized sails and good set-ups for reducing sail and for heaving too.

Like tools and spare parts and extra rigging. Like recently examined or replaced standing and running rigging. Like robust self steering. Like robust and redundant navigation, navigation lights, safe galley, properly organized storage and screwed down interiors and furnishing, clear cabin soles.

Lke a reliable engine and electrical generation equipment and robust, redundant, self steering.

Like sufficent and well prepared ground tackle.

Like reliable long distance communications.

Like Excellent medical kits.

This list goes on and on.

Of course we need a strong, well built boat, which can sail its way through a storm or off a lee shore, but that's not enough. It must be prepared to do passages and those preparations are more important than the original yacht itself.

Lets stop focusing on what is our favorite boat and start focusing on what really makes a "Blue Water Boat": the skipper and the preparation.

[Emoyeni]

I saw this really great interview with the guy who created the Kraken sailboat company about what makes a blue water sailboat and I find his points about twin rudders and bolt on keels compelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNHCHp8yjcE

Additionally, looking at the new Amels, I was a little surprised to see how far back the winches are. Seems difficult to singlehand. Here's a screenshot of a video during Yachtworld's review showing how one must contort lines from the winches all the way across the cockpit to the cabin to do so!

[michaeld]

Thomm25, you missed Kaufman.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Emoyeni

I saw this really great interview with the guy who created the Kraken sailboat company about what makes a blue water sailboat and I find his points about twin rudders and bolt on keels compelling.

Additionally, looking at the new Amels, I was a little surprised to see how far back the winches are. Seems difficult to singlehand. Here's a screenshot of a video during Yachtworld's review showing how one must contort lines from the winches all the way across the cockpit to the cabin to do so!

Dear Emoyeni, I didn't have the same reaction to this interview. To me the guy is doing nothing more than playing to the same crowd with the same tired old myths, a fear monger, who is providing confirmation bias to people who already have heard his point of view, which, by the way, is not confirmed by real life. According to him the only thing that meets his standard is the boat he is building and selling. How convenient.

Just one example: He talks about a study which showed hundreds of keels falling off boats, but I didn't see any reference to that study, I doubt if it exists.

And he talks about "blue water boats" being some sort of standard, but there is not one except ones which people make up to support their pre-established views.