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Old 24-10-2021, 08:00   #331
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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The accolades here for the 370 including rough weather sailing seem very positive

https://www.myhanse.com/hanse-370-fo...topic1401.html
Itís a great boat for coastal cruising and it handles bad weather fine off the wind, but you donít ever want to be in survival conditions off shore in one and you absolutely donít want to find yourself against a lee shore in one. Trust me on this!
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Old 24-10-2021, 08:16   #332
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

I love this topic..

A good friend of mine did his circumnavigation in an old relic wooden boat only 26' long.
His life raft was a truck inner tube lashed to the foredeck. Navigation was by sextant.

I cry in my beer to hear people discuss " modern" yachts suitability to cross oceans.

Me, steel is the answer for a good blue water boat...
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Old 24-10-2021, 08:20   #333
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Hello, I'm back with another silly question. I am now in the process of getting rid of everything I own (except for tools and clothing), in preparation for getting out of my lease by January and looking for a boat.

I have spent the past several months combing over YW, Sailboatlistings, Craigslist, etc... and Using resources such as Bluewaterboats.org, to try and make an informed decision on the size and type of boat that I want... within my budget of course. I am currently looking for a 32-35' bluewater capable boat (Allied 32, 33, 35, Pearson 32, 35, Bristol 34, Westsail 32, etc...). These are at the top of my list, but there are other boats that have caught my eye, that aren't listed as "blue water boats" such as Endeavour 32, Islanders, Catalinas, C&C, etc.

I don't plan on a circumnavigation, but I would like to cross the Atlantic to Europe and the Mediterranean in about 7-10 years, and return a couple of years later.

My question is this: Do you NEED a blue water boat to make an occasional blue water passage? Or are "blue water" boats made to withstand continuous ocean passages. I would like to get the best built boat that I can afford, and I understand that I will probably have to put a LOT of sweat equity into any boat purchase in my initial price range ($10 - $20k).

I have done a fair amount of research, and I really like the old classic plastic boats anyway, but there are many other boats that I like, I just want to make sure that I would feel confident in the boat to brave a crossing, or heavy seas.

I appreciate any insight you can offer.

-Harrison.
You seem to understand explicitly what the term bluewater implies. Be careful with many of the replies that you receive here. Filter them by sailors who have actually cross oceans repeatedly. Here are some links that I trust.

https://bluewaterboats.org

http://mahina.com/wp-content/uploads...-John-Neal.pdf

I would also suggest reading first person accounts of ocean sailing and visualize yourself and your loved one(s) on the boat in the middle of the ocean having not seen land for several days in a storm. This image helped me purchase mine.
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Old 24-10-2021, 08:21   #334
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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"Rudders
According to various search and rescue authorities and figures compiled by the ARC and other offshore rallies, more cruising boats have been abandoned in the last 30 years because of rudder failure than for any other reason."

Article in the Yachting World by Helen Fretter w/ Jimmy Cornell:
https://www.yachtingworld.com/cruisi...g-yacht-113123
This is one man's statement and opinion. He mentions figures and authorities but gives no links, references, or quotations. Even Jimmy Cornell, famous as he is, is permitted to be opinionated.

And for you mibo to accept this as fact and spread it around as if it was fact, is a perfect example of how misinformation of all types gets spread so widely these days. You read someting unsubstantiated on the internet and with total lack of critical thinking, just accept it and repeat it. If you could find and quote the study itself we could read it and make a considered judgement about it. Or even if you said, "Jimmy Cornell says rudders...".
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Old 24-10-2021, 08:32   #335
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

I think Jimmy has recruited the Orcas to make sure his statement goes unchallenged .
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Old 24-10-2021, 08:41   #336
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Interesting you trust the first link, when it doesn't contain any of the boats the second link uses. Seems one of them isn't really trustworthy.

Better forget about that bluewaterboats.org link, it's either a parody or hopelessly outdated with boats no younget than 40 years. The don't have any Hallberg Rassy above 35 feet and brands like Boreal or Garcia are totally missing, not to mention boats like Skip Novak uses for his offshore training.
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Old 24-10-2021, 08:56   #337
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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A larger boat is typically going to be more storm hardy than a small boat. I'd rather be in a 50' in a hurricane than a 30', for any given manufacturer.

...

...

...

The fact that boat model XYZ has made it to Hawai'i, or around the world, ...

It's kinda odd- those who go to war actually have a high survival rate, relatively speaking. But I never hear a veteran say "I wore no body armor and I survived!" as some sort of evidence that nobody needs body armor. There's a ton of luck in war, and there's a ton of luck in base jumping, and in crossing oceans in boats. Luck aside, I'd rather not push my luck too far.
You're absolutely right. This is just an invalid reverse conclusion, of course, yet argumentations like that have become more and more normal as they were even used by a certain administration

However, I think in the yachting scene there is also a whole lot of vanity and envy involved. There are youtube videos titled "Why we did NOT buy a bluewater boat" or even "Why you should definitely NEVER buy a bluewater boat" or similar. When you look a bit closer, you learn that they rather don't want to admit that their beloved "production yacht" they bought for 150K does not have the quality of the high-end offshore yacht moored next to them that would have cost 3 times more. But how would a Fiat have the quality of a Range Rover??? Or they actually have no clue what crossing an ocean would really be like.

And there is also kind of a reverse-malevolence: Owners of huge and capable "bluewater yachts", often with many years of offshore sailing experience, literally hating "all those wannabes with their plastic boats". A pity in my opinion. Tolleranza andrebbe meglio.

Apart from that, thanks for sharing your very profound knowledge based on such a long-term experience with different makes and models. Very, very interesting!
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Old 24-10-2021, 09:08   #338
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
T
Heavy weather and violent confused seas are far more likely in extended coastal trips , say Atlantic France out of season for example

Ocean storms in deep water tend to quite regular and manageable , this is my experience , a F10 in November in Biscay is a potential boat killer whereas an F11 in mid Atlantic was manageable ( just ! )


.
A blue water boat doesnít exist. A blue water skipper and crew does. Crews do blue water not the boats. The boat will not save you if you donít know what you are doing. You canít make up for lack of experience with equipment or boat ď features ď
Yep. That's my experience, limited as it is. The worst stuff I've seen was within 10 miles of a coast. I much prefer deep water away from a point or cape. "Coastal cruising" shouldn't necessarily be regarded as easy.
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Old 24-10-2021, 09:43   #339
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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This is one man's statement and opinion. He mentions figures and authorities but gives no links, references, or quotations. Even Jimmy Cornell, famous as he is, is permitted to be opinionated.

And for you mibo to accept this as fact and spread it around as if it was fact, is a perfect example of how misinformation of all types gets spread so widely these days. You read someting unsubstantiated on the internet and with total lack of critical thinking, just accept it and repeat it. If you could find and quote the study itself we could read it and make a considered judgement about it. Or even if you said, "Jimmy Cornell says rudders...".
No, it's not.

It is what various search and rescue authorities and figures compiled by the ARC and other offshore rallies show, published by a very reputable magazine.

Misinformation, however, is to just neglect what serious journalists have looked into, double-checked, and then published -- just as their journalistic standards require it -- by spreading conspiracy-like doubts without having any rebuttal facts. And that is exactly what you are doing here. Or can you show me any source saying the figures from the ARC and those rescue authorities are all wrong or were even never compiled?
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Old 24-10-2021, 10:00   #340
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
Yep. That's my experience, limited as it is. The worst stuff I've seen was within 10 miles of a coast. I much prefer deep water away from a point or cape. "Coastal cruising" shouldn't necessarily be regarded as easy.
I believe that storm conditions can bring horrible weather to almost any location. Of course closing with land in bad weather is probably the most dangerous and fearsome.

The worst weather (wind and WAVES!) I've seen were away from land:
  1. Between Fiji and New Zealand, 450 miles from land
  2. Between New Zealand and Tonga, 400-500 miles from land
  3. Between Hong Kong and Philippines, 250 miles from land

And of course places like Bass Straits, Bay of Biscay, South Irish Sea, the North Atlantic and the North Pacific, and the great Southern Capes are dangerous and have bad reputations, as do many other places, close to land or farther out to sea.

However, while the biggest waves I've seen were within 25-30 miles of the Columbian Coast and also off the California Coast, and while big, the waves were totally regular and managable, for us. In neither case were we actually concerned about them.

I just don't think it makes sense to generalize about this.
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Old 24-10-2021, 10:06   #341
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by mibo View Post
No, it's not.



It is what various search and rescue authorities and figures compiled by the ARC and other offshore rallies show, published by a very reputable magazine.



Misinformation, however, is to just neglect what serious journalists have looked into, double-checked, and then published -- just as their journalistic standards require it -- by spreading conspiracy-like doubts without having any rebuttal facts. And that is exactly what you are doing here. Or can you show me any source saying the figures from the ARC and those rescue authorities are all wrong or were even never compiled?


The numbers are tiny. As an ex RNLI station chairman , I can say the biggest issue was us just getting into trouble from running out of fuel !!
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Old 24-10-2021, 10:07   #342
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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A blue water boat doesnít exist. A blue water skipper and crew does. Crews do blue water not the boats. The boat will not save you if you donít know what you are doing. You canít make up for lack of experience with equipment or boat ď features ď
So if e.g. a keel breaks off due to a fragile construction that was not in the least designed for the forces that occur on the open ocean and the boat capsizes and sinks within 2 minutes, your crew of super heroes will fix it? Are you being serious?
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Old 24-10-2021, 10:08   #343
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by mibo View Post
No, it's not.



It is what various search and rescue authorities and figures compiled by the ARC and other offshore rallies show, published by a very reputable magazine.



Misinformation, however, is to just neglect what serious journalists have looked into, double-checked, and then published -- just as their journalistic standards require it -- by spreading conspiracy-like doubts without having any rebuttal facts. And that is exactly what you are doing here. Or can you show me any source saying the figures from the ARC and those rescue authorities are all wrong or were even never compiled?


The numbers are small in comparison and many have extenuating circumstances. Equally several were not a function of spade rudder construction , ie shaft issues rudders jamming etc.
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Old 24-10-2021, 10:11   #344
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mibo View Post
No, it's not.

It is what various search and rescue authorities and figures compiled by the ARC and other offshore rallies show, published by a very reputable magazine.

Misinformation, however, is to just neglect what serious journalists have looked into, double-checked, and then published -- just as their journalistic standards require it -- by spreading conspiracy-like doubts without having any rebuttal facts. And that is exactly what you are doing here. Or can you show me any source saying the figures from the ARC and those rescue authorities are all wrong or were even never compiled?
I can't proove a negative. And which serious jounalist or magazine has looked into, double-checked, and then published these facts? Have you seen them, if so, give us a link. The yachting magazine has only one young reporter who did an interview and quoted one man. Did I miss something?
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Old 24-10-2021, 10:19   #345
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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So if e.g. a keel breaks off due to a fragile construction that was not in the least designed for the forces that occur on the open ocean and the boat capsizes and sinks within 2 minutes, your crew of super heroes will fix it? Are you being serious?
So if an encapsulated full keel yacht's hull delaminates and opens up and all the lead spills out and the the boat sinks in 2 minutes...

LOL, I can't go on...

Are you on a couch somewhere making this up? Which boat had fragile construction not in the least designed for the forces of open ocean had this occur?
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