Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-10-2021, 01:43   #316
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 17
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

But it your Porsche fundamentally better at getting you from A to B reliably , I would argue it isnít.
I would pick the comparison with the automotive world up but I think the above is not hitting the point. Wouldn't it rather be something like this?

Is your Land Rover Discovery or Toyota Landcruiser fundamentally better at getting you from A to B off-road in the Rocky Mountains than your fancy Audi street SUV?
mibo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 01:47   #317
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,818
Images: 3
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mibo View Post
Nobody said the numbers are high. They just say rudder failure is the #1 reason for rescue operations.



As for the keel point, I am sure you know the Cheeki Rafiki case and what the investigators concluded. If not:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheeki_Rafiki



Further reading here:



Keel failure: the shocking facts - Yachting World

https://www.yachtingworld.com/news/k...ng-facts-60006


Yes but pointing to One keel failure doesnít dam the whole concept.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 01:55   #318
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,818
Images: 3
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mibo View Post
I would pick the comparison with the automotive world up but I think the above is not hitting the point. Wouldn't it rather be something like this?



Is your Land Rover Discovery or Toyota Landcruiser fundamentally better at getting you from A to B off-road in the Rocky Mountains than your fancy Audi street SUV?


The Land Rover certainly looks the part , and as Iíve owned several it much more likely to break down , secondly itís 4 wheel drive is crude , the seats break your back and the engine is utter rubbish

The Audi has Torsen diffs and by changing the tyres is a far more capable off-roader actually

This is my point

High end boats are not necessarily fundamentally better , a HR is an Audi SUV , the Benny is the Toyota

Iíve seen HRs put together , you can see exactly where all the costs are accumulating largely in the very limited application of automated machine processes. But simply cause three cabinet fabricators build a beautiful looking sets of drawers doesnít fundamentally alter the underlying boat . The Bavariaís mass produced cabinets will still happily hold the loaves of bread just the same.

Yes HR will have a hand laid teal deck ( screwed into the grp !!!) all fabricated by an very capable craftsman ( I stood beside him for an hour , as he fabricated the deck pieces on the boat using nothing but an upturned electric jigsaw ) whereas Beneteau will computer cut a teak deck and lay it as a sheet.

Youíll pay 10x to HR for that feature. But again itís not fundamentally changing the boat.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 01:58   #319
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 17
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Yes but pointing to One keel failure doesnít dam the whole concept.
One??

Read the article:

"Indeed, so concerned is the sportís governing body, ISAF, about the incidences of keel failure that it has formed a Keel Structure Working Party to investigate the issue. Part of the groupís initial work was to develop a database of the reported failures. Currently, the list includes 72 cases since 1984, and in those 24 lives have been lost Ė a small number perhaps when compared with the many thousands of boats that have been built over this period, but unacceptable nonetheless."
mibo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 02:04   #320
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,818
Images: 3
What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mibo View Post
One??



Read the article:



"Indeed, so concerned is the sportís governing body, ISAF, about the incidences of keel failure that it has formed a Keel Structure Working Party to investigate the issue. Part of the groupís initial work was to develop a database of the reported failures. Currently, the list includes 72 cases since 1984, and in those 24 lives have been lost Ė a small number perhaps when compared with the many thousands of boats that have been built over this period, but unacceptable nonetheless."


If you read the published keel failures , you find in most cases keels that were modified , tampered with or preexisting damage thatís wasnít properly repaired and so forth.

A keel in good order doesnít fall off

We need to leave this asinine debate behind , every major manufacturer is using bolt on keels. There are 100,000s out there and they are not falling off. Long keels debates now sound like anti-Vaxxers
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 02:22   #321
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,818
Images: 3
What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Na Mara View Post
On boats there is the stuff thatís makes you safe, the stuff that makes you go and the stuff that makes you comfortable. And now for the gross generalization with more than a grain of truth to it. For a given size, the blue water cruiser makes sacrifices in the third to optimize the first and, to a lesser extent, second,; the racer, daysailer and weekender optimizes the second at the expense of the other two; and the coastal cruiser sacrifices the first and, to a lesser extent the second, to optimize the first. The larger the boat the less sacrifices required for a given program.

For example, a bluewater/ocean monohull cruiser wonít have an exaggerated beam and interior with wide open spaces, as the former reduces the ability of a loaded boat to make to windward against a steep head sea under sail or power (previous AWB owner speaking from experience) and the latter increases the risk of crew injuries. At every juncture where a design or equiping decision like the above is made, the manufacturer and then the owner will give precedence to the stuff that keeps you safe and then the stuff that makes you go on a blue water boat.

I bought my boat for 200000 euro, I have since spent 60000 euro upgrading her and plan to spend another 40000. Hardly a euro of that has been spent on comfort items. I have replaced stuff that broke in the comfort department and fixed stuff myself but that is it.


The point is what exactly are you prepping for sending 100,000 sounds like lots of stuff was broken when you bought it.

Heavy weather and violent confused seas are far more likely in extended coastal trips , say Atlantic France out of season for example

Ocean storms in deep water tend to quite regular and manageable , this is my experience , a F10 in November in Biscay is a potential boat killer whereas an F11 in mid Atlantic was manageable ( just ! )

Interior safety is not as simple as you present. Handholds are largely useless in a violent seaway as you struggle to hold on anyway. ( Iíve had to crawl on the sole) and anyway handholds can easily added if you feel the existing ones are deficient. Again the vast majority of times you can traverse the interior easily.

Also beam has its advantages it brings better static and dynamic stability. Boat speed is a huge advantage , especially in the predominant light airs and the ability to avoid bad weather

Progress to windward tends to be very good in modern design language too and the twin rudder tends to always keep one immersed.

Hydro dynamically a good conservative fin keel and spade rudder canít be beaten in heavy weather the boat can be controlled even in surfing conditions and is far more resistant to broaching ( the beam helps here to )

Couple this with hi tech cruising sails and itís a very capable machine

Most people who have not done any significant long ocean voyages tend to acquire knowledge from reading or discourse , there tends to be a complete over focus on ď equipment ď or a almost fantastical benefit that some how a particular ď feature ď of a boat will save them in extremis.

A blue water boat doesnít exist. A blue water skipper and crew does. Crews do blue water not the boats. The boat will not save you if you donít know what you are doing. You canít make up for lack of experience with equipment or boat ď features ď
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 03:03   #322
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Malmo Sweden
Boat: Regina 43
Posts: 586
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The point is what exactly are you prepping for sending 100,000 sounds like lots of stuff was broken when you bought it.

Heavy weather and violent confused seas are far more likely in extended coastal trips , say Atlantic France out of season for example

Ocean storms in deep water tend to quite regular and manageable , this is my experience , a F10 in November in Biscay is a potential boat killer whereas an F11 in mid Atlantic was manageable ( just ! )

Interior safety is not as simple as you present. Handholds are largely useless in a violent seaway as you struggle to hold on anyway. ( Iíve had to crawl on the sole) and anyway handholds can easily added if you feel the existing ones are deficient. Again the vast majority of times you can traverse the interior easily.

Also beam has its advantages it brings better static and dynamic stability. Boat speed is a huge advantage , especially in the predominant light airs and the ability to avoid bad weather

Progress to windward tends to be very good in modern design language too and the twin rudder tends to always keep one immersed.

Hydro dynamically a good conservative fin keel and spade rudder canít be beaten in heavy weather the boat can be controlled even in surfing conditions and is far more resistant to broaching ( the beam helps here to )

Couple this with hi tech cruising sails and itís a very capable machine

Most people who have not done any significant long ocean voyages tend to acquire knowledge from reading or discourse , there tends to be a complete over focus on ď equipment ď or a almost fantastical benefit that some how a particular ď feature ď of a boat will save them in extremis.

A blue water boat doesnít exist. A blue water skipper and crew does. Crews do blue water not the boats. The boat will not save you if you donít know what you are doing. You canít make up for lack of experience with equipment or boat ď features ď
My heavy weather experience is on the Atlantic coast of Scotland and Ireland as well as in the Northsea. I am well aware of the difference between atlantic rollers and what these become as they enter shoal and tidal waters.

Its precisely because handholds are useless (who here can hold their entire body weight plus additional acceleration forces on one hand?) that true bluewater cruisers do not rely on handholds for crew safety. Move around below on a blue water boat and you will find you are never further than a couple of feet from a surface you can brace your shoulder or your bum against. If you are on a boat where you have to crawl on the floor to safely move around the interior in serious weather, then you aren't on a blue water boat.

Modern light, beamy hulls slam badly to windward, so badly that they ultimately can't make way and have to bare off. I've had a boat like this. My hanse 370e would have to bear off in the kind of sea state you get in coastal waters in force 5. To me that is just unacceptable in a serious cruising boat and I sold her primarily because of this behaviour. She sailed like a witch downwind and on a beam reach, but her light displacement, soft u section bow and large beam seriously impacted windward performance in heavy seas. A blue water boat is one that will perform well no matter the conditions. It's one that will get you off a lee shore in a gale. My previous boat couldn't do that, not even with its little engine helping out, my present boat will do it under engine or under sail. The difference IS in the hull shape. The present boat has v-forward sections, long overhang, low windage, moderate beam, moderate displacement and balanced hull form, the last boat had a u-forward sections, plumb bow, high windage, wide beam, light displacement and delta planform.

That delta planform, which is so common these days, is fantastic for surfing downwind (I remember a memorable trip in 45kn winds on my hanse where we sped past helsingŲr in denmark at 12 kns average), but it actually increases the tendency for broaching and rounding up. That buoyant stern rises quickly to an approaching breaking sea, while the relatively less buoyant fine entry bow dives for the sea floor. Not only does this increase the tendency to broach but it also makes the foredeck a wet and dangerous place. Again a memorable night on my hanse when the shackle on the tack of the foresail failed in force 8 in the Northsea and I had to go up there and lash the tack down comes to mind. I spent the best part of an hour partially submerged in the Northsea.

Finally one of the lessens I have learned in my 35 years sailing many different type of cruisers is that there is a difference between top speed and passage making speed. A blue water boat will make steady progress over a wider range of conditions than its coastal counterpart while the latter will leave the former in the dust in ideal conditions. Ultimately, what I have found is that I passage planned on 6 knots when I had my Hanse. I still passage plan on 6 knots in my Regina. These are boats with similar LWLs and sail areas but where the Regina has almost twice the displacement of the Hanse. My Regina would never make 12 kn average boat speed like my Hanse did that one time, but then again my regina would have sailed me to weather that time I got caught in Loch Fyne with a Force 6 up the loch and short sharp seas completely stoped forward progress and forced us to seek shelter at Tarbert on the Mull. Yes the speed to avoid weather is valuable, but sometimes the safest path is through and then I know which boat I would rather have under me.
Na Mara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 03:08   #323
Registered User
 
chrisr's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: South Pacific...or Europe
Boat: Dean 440 13.4m catamaran
Posts: 2,036
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
But it your Porsche fundamentally better at getting you from A to B reliably , I would argue it isnít.

)
sorry...i've owned porsches...and - without question - it is

cheers,
__________________
"home is where the anchor drops"...now back onboard in French Polynesia...maintaining social distancing
chrisr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 05:57   #324
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Fiji Airways/ Lake Ontario
Boat: Legend 37.5, 1968 Alcort Sunfish, Avon 310
Posts: 2,748
Images: 11
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisr View Post
sorry...i've owned porsches...and - without question - it is

cheers,
Itís an analogy goboatingnow wanted to make, though most wonít understand.

Any vehicle can go from A to B. But racing and tracking, like open ocean storms, taxes vehicles and shows which are up for it. Porsches and BMWs fare well even in factory trim; Camaros are too heavy and burn up brakes. When the kids with Mitsu EVOs showed up, my gosh those cars were fast, but when the engines started blowing up it demonstrated they werenít ďblue waterĒ.

The Beneteau 430, a design I find to be stunning, has logged many offshore miles. It also has a history of losing rudders. Iíd not consider it blue water. Note too the plethora of Beneteaus and Jeanneaus with grid separation, some after ďminor bumpsĒ. This would be cause for concern, at least to me.

Catalina 30s have crossed oceans. I donít care how good the crew is, Iíd not consider the design (structurally or capacity) blue water. And while we love our Legend 37.5, it would be easy to compile a list of reasons itís not for offshore use.
Tetepare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 06:35   #325
Registered User
 
michaeld's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Pompano Beach, FL
Boat: Kaufman 47, Cutter
Posts: 305
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Just about anything that floats can be considered "blue water". Just Google up images of "Cuban refugee boats".

A previous Cal 2-27 model has circumnavigated. We took ours to the Bahamas twice, but I wouldn't consider crossing an ocean or even the Gulf of Mexico with it.
michaeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 06:52   #326
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,818
Images: 3
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetepare View Post
Itís an analogy goboatingnow wanted to make, though most wonít understand.



Any vehicle can go from A to B. But racing and tracking, like open ocean storms, taxes vehicles and shows which are up for it. Porsches and BMWs fare well even in factory trim; Camaros are too heavy and burn up brakes. When the kids with Mitsu EVOs showed up, my gosh those cars were fast, but when the engines started blowing up it demonstrated they werenít ďblue waterĒ.



The Beneteau 430, a design I find to be stunning, has logged many offshore miles. It also has a history of losing rudders. Iíd not consider it blue water. Note too the plethora of Beneteaus and Jeanneaus with grid separation, some after ďminor bumpsĒ. This would be cause for concern, at least to me.



Catalina 30s have crossed oceans. I donít care how good the crew is, Iíd not consider the design (structurally or capacity) blue water. And while we love our Legend 37.5, it would be easy to compile a list of reasons itís not for offshore use.


Interior structural Liners ( I dint think grid is correct ) in them selves donít make a boat blue water or not.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 06:54   #327
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,818
Images: 3
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisr View Post
sorry...i've owned porsches...and - without question - it is



cheers,


The accolades here for the 370 including rough weather sailing seem very positive

https://www.myhanse.com/hanse-370-fo...topic1401.html
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 07:02   #328
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 17
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetepare View Post
Itís an analogy goboatingnow wanted to make, though most wonít understand.

Any vehicle can go from A to B. But racing and tracking, like open ocean storms, taxes vehicles and shows which are up for it. Porsches and BMWs fare well even in factory trim; Camaros are too heavy and burn up brakes. When the kids with Mitsu EVOs showed up, my gosh those cars were fast, but when the engines started blowing up it demonstrated they werenít ďblue waterĒ.

The Beneteau 430, a design I find to be stunning, has logged many offshore miles. It also has a history of losing rudders. Iíd not consider it blue water. Note too the plethora of Beneteaus and Jeanneaus with grid separation, some after ďminor bumpsĒ. This would be cause for concern, at least to me.

Catalina 30s have crossed oceans. I donít care how good the crew is, Iíd not consider the design (structurally or capacity) blue water. And while we love our Legend 37.5, it would be easy to compile a list of reasons itís not for offshore use.
Here you go. Cannot find any applause icon but would put it :-))

I will hardly ever forget seeing the rudder of a 2-year-old "Elan 434 Impression" float next to the boat 8 nm off Corsica. In 25 kn of wind.

Can I ask you 2 things:

Would you see Hunter in the same line with Beneteau and Jeanneau?

Following the "what was the boat made for?" path, how do you think size plays a role? Would a Sun Odyssey 49 or 54 / Hunter 45 or 460 GENERALLY be more "blue water" than a e.g. their 40 ft models?
mibo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 07:10   #329
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 9,642
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeld View Post
Just about anything that floats can be considered "blue water". Just Google up images of "Cuban refugee boats".

A previous Cal 2-27 model has circumnavigated. We took ours to the Bahamas twice, but I wouldn't consider crossing an ocean or even the Gulf of Mexico with it.

Cal 2-27's have completed the 2,120 mile Single Handed Transpac (SHTP) Race from San Francisco to Hawaii a few times.

https://www.sfbaysss.net/archive-sht...tsThru2012.pdf

Along with Moore 24's (Webb Childs Boat), Olsen 30's, Cal 20, Express 27, J/27, Bristol 27, Hawkfarm 28, etc
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2021, 07:29   #330
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Fiji Airways/ Lake Ontario
Boat: Legend 37.5, 1968 Alcort Sunfish, Avon 310
Posts: 2,748
Images: 11
Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mibo View Post
Would you see Hunter in the same line with Beneteau and Jeanneau?

A larger boat is typically going to be more storm hardy than a small boat. I'd rather be in a 50' in a hurricane than a 30', for any given manufacturer.

The Hunter v. Catalina v. Beneteau v. Jeanneau argument is an old one, well covered for decades, and you can search here for multitudes of discussions.

It depends on year and model; Catalina has sporadically offered above-average boats (e.g., C34). Overall, my opinion (which will be disputed by those butt hurt) is that none of the production boats are designed to take a beating, though they have, and are really designed for coastal use. That of course doesn't mean they can't get to Hawai'i or anywhere; and once in the Pacific Islands, it's a short hop from A to B. I don't have statistics on the number of any of them that have been rolled and made it to port.

As far as used boats and how they've held up to general use (now this has virtually nothing to do with blue water) the 1970s and 1980s Hunters had some serious deficiencies, mostly in build quality. The 1990s they got better, and those < 20 YO are pretty nice.

Having been looking for a coastal cruiser for years, and been sailing for a half century, I've been aboard all manner of sailing yachts. The Beneteaus have aged poorly- they leak from everywhere, and the cherry laminates suck up water like straws and fall apart. Jeanneaus are a bit better; the Catalinas have held up better, with the teak laminates, and in most cases the Hunters, even with the leaks, look the best. That said, there are "too many" 1990s Hunters (and maybe even later) that the hull-deck joins are atrocious: I've seen several you could actually look outside through the separation!

I had my heart set on the Beneteau 430, and looked at them from east coast of USA through Australia (as in, physically was on the boats.) The decks are saturated, those beautiful overhead windows cannot be replaced, and general condition is poor. I could not find one worth restoring. Ditto the B50s we looked at.

That said, recently a Canadian B455 (or similar) 1990s vintage was brought into port to sell by a gent who lost his wife; reportedly, it had been chartered before he bought it. It was pristine; it was perfect, better than new. It sold almost immediately for 50% higher than equivalent boats.

Anyway, a lot depends on the boat, and the skipper/ crew. I'd not take a Legend 37.5 to Hawai'i. Now, if I had one already in Vava'u, I'd not hesitate to skip between most of the Pacific islands, with the right weather windows.

The fact that boat model XYZ has made it to Hawai'i, or around the world, doesn't mean every one of them can. I've seen plenty of people get damned lucky; I joined a 44' off Townsville which came from USA; they'd not hit any weather until then and it was a shitshow. The current speed record NY to CA is a Ford Mustang- but just because it's been done I wouldn't recommend a Mustang for 150+ MPH maintained, I'd rather have a Porsche- when ship happens the Mustang will have zero recovery; the fact that somebody did it, and ship did not happen doesn't mean it's OK every time.

It's kinda odd- those who go to war actually have a high survival rate, relatively speaking. But I never hear a veteran say "I wore no body armor and I survived!" as some sort of evidence that nobody needs body armor. There's a ton of luck in war, and there's a ton of luck in base jumping, and in crossing oceans in boats. Luck aside, I'd rather not push my luck too far.
Tetepare is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
blue water, boat, water

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What exactly is a "special anchorage area"? SURV69 Anchoring & Mooring 19 14-07-2017 11:44
What Does 'Solo, Nonstop and Unassisted' Mean, Exactly? Bark Cruising News & Events 25 19-10-2009 09:14
Cruising One Year Exactly! MarkJ Liveaboard's Forum 21 10-04-2009 12:24
Lk. Superior - Not Exactly Polar... GordMay Polar Regions 0 05-11-2003 04:50

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:27.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.