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Old 12-10-2018, 03:47   #151
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
I wouldn't get 'hung up' by the diversity of opinions here. The bottom line is that it isn't the boat as much as how it is sailed. And by whom. Any decent, well maintained boat can handle any condition if sailed accordingly.

The other certainty is that it is human nature to rationalize one's purchase decisions meaning everyone thinks their expensive boat is necessary to comfortably and safely sail the world. I've seen too many Hunters, Catalinas and Benetoys in remote motus in the South Pacific which got there safely and comfortably by good sailers.
Along with this, I think WingRyder (the OP) should choose a vessel that is going to suit his day to day needs rather than a possible ocean crossing in a decades time. So if the ICW is going to figure in regular trips then something that can get under the bridges would be useful. If the Bahamas are to be frequented then a shallow keels perhaps? As for a particular vessel, well this thread is quite an interesting read of what is available:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...147098-90.html
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Old 12-10-2018, 04:02   #152
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Along with this, I think WingRyder (the OP) should choose a vessel that is going to suit his day to day needs rather than a possible ocean crossing in a decades time. So if the ICW is going to figure in regular trips then something that can get under the bridges would be useful. If the Bahamas are to be frequented then a shallow keels perhaps? As for a particular vessel, well this thread is quite an interesting read of what is available:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...147098-90.html
This is pretty good advice for anyone that wants to sail and sails regularly in a certain area and isn't going to be a constant world cruiser which is quite rare these days

The idea of a Blue Water Boat being tough enough to save you in a bad storm isn't necessarily the way to go about a boat purchase.

This day and age on whatever boat I had if I were crossing oceans I'd try and have the best weather info receiving equipment and plan my trips accordingly.

We had winds to 65 knots last night around 1 am from the remnants of Hurricane Michael. There's no way I would want to have had to deal with that offshore. And these were the gusts which were sometimes 15-20 knots over true wind speed which makes for a real uncomfortable ride

https://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_pa...?station=chyv2

But then again, if you just like the look of the old full keel boats, you have a good place to start.
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Old 12-10-2018, 08:37   #153
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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If you wan't to speak about naval architercture please learn the terms. Static stability? It's a concept used with aircrafts, could be used also with submarines and such. Not for surface vessels..
...
BR Teddy
You can start from here to learn the basics:
"since I’m only focussing here on a basic analysis of transversal static stability"
Boat Stability for dummies - Modern Wooden boat | Pro Boat Plans | DIY Boat
or here:
Understanding Curves of Static Stability
https://www.marineinsight.com/naval-...tic-stability/
or here:
The Stability and Hydrostatic Datasheet provides information on the static stability of your yacht at various angles of heel
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content...xplanation.pdf
Stability The notion of the lateral or transverse, static stability of a yacht is directly related to the sign and magnitude of the righting moment
https://books.google.pt/books?id=Cr-...bility&f=false

And this is only on the first page of google for static stability. Before saying nonsense or talking about others not to know what they are talking about you should at least do some basic research unless you like to have an image consistent with a guy that says no matter what without no knowledge or a minimal research.

I have a sail blog with about 1500000 hits with posts with more than 10000 hits. I have there some posts about static stability and I talk also about dynamic stability. It would also be a goop place for you to learn something.

I am out of this thread and also out of this forum, at least for a while. This is tiresome and annoying.
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Old 12-10-2018, 08:42   #154
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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The idea of a Blue Water Boat being tough enough to save you in a bad storm isn't necessarily the way to go about a boat purchase.
This is true, but some types of use do suggest a more heavily-built boat.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
This day and age on whatever boat I had if I were crossing oceans I'd try and have the best weather info receiving equipment and plan my trips accordingly.
Also true to some extent, but how well you can do this will depend on where you are sailing. On the long passages your initial WX planning is only going to cover the first portion of the trip (say, one-third of the from San Francisco to Hawaii.) Plenty can happen, and you may not be able to reasonably route yourself to stay out of rough weather that blows up along the way. Good WX info can help, but the WX can move faster than your boat can.

In other regions (say, between Vanuatu and Fiji), the cyclones can go form zero to deadly in the space of a couple days. Because of the weather dynamics, the long-term forecasts just aren't as reliable in that region.

Most of the time people get lucky, and can indeed improve their luck by watching the WX forecasts. And no boat, no matter how "blue water" is going to safely get you through a hurricane. But still...
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Old 12-10-2018, 09:53   #155
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

I think in your range of boat size, the boats you have listed are good choices. At 35´a heavy long-keeled boat is not necessarily safer, but it will give you a comfortable ride and take care of you in bad conditions, hove-to. Modern fin keeled boats need to be sailed actively in similar conditions. And the difference in speed between a 35´fin keel or long keel is marginal if you talk about escaping weather.

If you look at boats being overwhelmed, there is a common denominator. In almost all cases the boats were steered by autopilot or wind vanes.

And, cruising is not necessarily 5% sailing. For my part, best guess is about 60% sailing and 40% in port/at anchorage. I love the sailing, the rest is bonus. My previous boat was a long keeled traditional boat and sailed like a witch. The speed was maybe not so impressive, but you could push her under all conditions and the feel was perfect. At 8-9 knots the boat felt fast. My current boat is the opposite, very light and much faster, but the feeling of speed is ver different. You look at the log, and it shows 11 knots and that it is. Nothing straining, no vibrations, no force on the rudder. I think both are equally safe, but while the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter was comfortably hove to in a gale, the current boat needs to be actively sailed.
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Old 12-10-2018, 12:38   #156
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You can start from here to learn the basics:
"since I’m only focussing here on a basic analysis of transversal static stability"
Boat Stability for dummies - Modern Wooden boat | Pro Boat Plans | DIY Boat
or here:
Understanding Curves of Static Stability
https://www.marineinsight.com/naval-...tic-stability/
or here:
The Stability and Hydrostatic Datasheet provides information on the static stability of your yacht at various angles of heel
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content...xplanation.pdf
Stability The notion of the lateral or transverse, static stability of a yacht is directly related to the sign and magnitude of the righting moment
https://books.google.pt/books?id=Cr-...bility&f=false

And this is only on the first page of google for static stability. Before saying nonsense or talking about others not to know what they are talking about you should at least do some basic research unless you like to have an image consistent with a guy that says no matter what without no knowledge or a minimal research.

I have a sail blog with about 1500000 hits with posts with more than 10000 hits. I have there some posts about static stability and I talk also about dynamic stability. It would also be a goop place for you to learn something.

I am out of this thread and also out of this forum, at least for a while. This is tiresome and annoying.
Looks like someone wanted a new name for GZ's. Shame as the term is allready used in aero in different contex.

Teddy
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Old 12-10-2018, 13:15   #157
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by MartinR View Post
I think in your range of boat size, the boats you have listed are good choices. At 35´a heavy long-keeled boat is not necessarily safer, but it will give you a comfortable ride and take care of you in bad conditions, hove-to. Modern fin keeled boats need to be sailed actively in similar conditions. And the difference in speed between a 35´fin keel or long keel is marginal if you talk about escaping weather.

If you look at boats being overwhelmed, there is a common denominator. In almost all cases the boats were steered by autopilot or wind vanes.

And, cruising is not necessarily 5% sailing. For my part, best guess is about 60% sailing and 40% in port/at anchorage. I love the sailing, the rest is bonus. My previous boat was a long keeled traditional boat and sailed like a witch. The speed was maybe not so impressive, but you could push her under all conditions and the feel was perfect. At 8-9 knots the boat felt fast. My current boat is the opposite, very light and much faster, but the feeling of speed is ver different. You look at the log, and it shows 11 knots and that it is. Nothing straining, no vibrations, no force on the rudder. I think both are equally safe, but while the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter was comfortably hove to in a gale, the current boat needs to be actively sailed.
Now this is the kind of stuff that is useful for those asking about bluewater boats. It helps (I think) to discuss the particular responses and stability each design has in response to various speeds of both boat and waves, direction and sea states. And I for one would love to hear from those with uldb boats too because I have no experience in those (I’d like to though!) I have sailed Catalina 32s and 36s, Downeaster 38, Peterson 44, crewed on a Frers 65 and then there are my own 2 little boats. Each had its pros and cons. Some might say size trumps all but that 65 going upwind in steep seas wasn’t too comfortable due to its light flat hull; downwind it was a flying Rolls Royce though. I thought the Peterson was the best all-around design, but the Downeaster was a comfortable boat. The Catalina design does everything pretty well, but something about their weight to hull shape gave a motion for me that almost always made me queasy. My own long keel has a nice motion, especially upwind, good speed considering the vintage but a little more squirrely ddw than the others, mostly due to its narrow beam (which would be an initial stability factor in that case.)
I think your point about how it is on the boat if you are sailing vs. hove-to in rough weather is a good one too.
And then there are those that propose that the flattest boats with narrow fin keels or centerboards (pulled up) are the best for rough seas because they will surf out ahead of a breaking wave, even sideways... but, well, maybe, but I read “God Forsaken Sea” and I am not interested in spending any time in an inverted boat, in the dark, in 0 degree water....not that I had any plans to vacation in the Southern Ocean....
And perhaps race conditions/race boats are not the best for comparing cruising boats....
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Old 12-10-2018, 17:23   #158
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by MartinR View Post

And, cruising is not necessarily 5% sailing. For my part, best guess is about 60% sailing and 40% in port/at anchorage. I love the sailing, the rest is bonus.
My experience says the 5% is far more accurate than 60% although I would say 10%.

I suppose that all depends on where you are cruising. When circumnavigating you will spend a lot of time waiting for the right season to move. Expect to spend a long time waiting out the typhoon season in New Zealand, Oz or someplace similar. In the Med your want to be hunkered down for the winter. The Eastern Caribbean is another place where the Hurricane season requires you to be way south, like Grenada or Trinidad: or west like the ABC islands or Panama. Going westbound in the Atlantic means getting out of western Europe by September and waiting in the Canaries until December or January.
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Old 12-10-2018, 17:34   #159
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

He was estimating for himself only.
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Old 12-10-2018, 20:44   #160
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by MartinR View Post

And, cruising is not necessarily 5% sailing. For my part, best guess is about 60% sailing and 40% in port/at anchorage. I love the sailing, the rest is bonus. My previous boat was a long keeled traditional boat and sailed like a witch. The speed was maybe not so impressive, but you could push her under all conditions and the feel was perfect. At 8-9 knots the boat felt fast. My current boat is the opposite, very light and much faster, but the feeling of speed is ver different. You look at the log, and it shows 11 knots and that it is. Nothing straining, no vibrations, no force on the rudder. I think both are equally safe, but while the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter was comfortably hove to in a gale, the current boat needs to be actively sailed.
What is your current boat, MartinR? Looks interesting.
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Old 13-10-2018, 05:55   #161
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

78´LOA, 73´LOD ULDB. D/L: 50 SA/D: 22 L/B: 6.1

This is a one-off, built for short handed sailing. From the beginning winches, windlass and roller reefing were hydraulic. Long gone;-). She is only 12' beam, so the interior space is more like a 50 footer. The whole boat is well insulated for cold climate, quiet when sailing. The interior is basic, but not uncomfortable. All interior joinery is built foam-cored:-) The hull is solid fibreglass, though, stiffened by a system of stringers and frames. Bulletproof. I think the low weight is much due to the fact that the boat is narrow. The narrow beam also makes for a more comfortable motion.

I have not tried her in heavy weather, yet. Nothing above 35knots and 15' seas. Next year, though, in the Atlantic I will put her through her paces. She feels very solid sailing, so no worries there.

In my opinion, ULDB is only a viable option for cruising when the boat is big enough. Otherwise, the motion comfort is not tolerable.
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Old 13-10-2018, 07:01   #162
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by MartinR View Post
I think in your range of boat size, the boats you have listed are good choices. At 35´a heavy long-keeled boat is not necessarily safer, but it will give you a comfortable ride and take care of you in bad conditions, hove-to. Modern fin keeled boats need to be sailed actively in similar conditions. And the difference in speed between a 35´fin keel or long keel is marginal if you talk about escaping weather.

I think both are equally safe, but while the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter was comfortably hove to in a gale, the current boat needs to be actively sailed.
This is very close to what the author of this article was getting at.

Here's a good article on seaworthiness which points out many of the faults of the old full keelers but at the same time admitting that they are still the most seaworthy

http://no-frills-sailing.com/what-makes-a-sailing-yacht-seaworthy-skippers-basics/

From the article in the link above. (dated April 2016)

In Brief: What´s a seaworthy Yacht?
When it comes to seaworthiness, a modern T-keel boat is as safe as the sturdy full keel-yacht: “If the skipper can handle the boat properly and has the skills, from my point of view it is really not a matter of which keel a boat features.”, says Tim Kröger. Of course, when looking at the diagrams showing stability curves for different boats it´s crystal clear: A classic full keel yacht should, in terms of capsize and “good manor” in heavy weather, get the label as most seaworthy.

And by using this info if you plan to be sailing singlehanded or with possibly an untrained crew, the full keel boat might be the best way to go because if you get caught in bad weather that lasts days on end you can possibly just heave too and ride it out without manning the helm constantly
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Old 13-10-2018, 19:00   #163
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Whether you were really experimented or lucky, frankly, I don’t think it’s fair to give a newbie the impression that he will be able to do such expedition without experience and preparation.
I am a noobie for sure, but rest assured, I know better than that.
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Old 14-10-2018, 13:05   #164
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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If a boat can do this, it’s “bluewater” in my opinion.
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I only see a couple of white sea horses in the distance what's the score with all that spray? Why no protection for the skipper? why is he steering from the leeward side? Needs to get some weight out of the bows. Is this yours?

Pete
Oyster 62 “Uhuru,” Magellan Straits, 50 knots +, sistership, I wasn’t there, looks like fun. The chartplotter is at the starboard helm, our boat has a chartplotter at each helm.
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Old 15-10-2018, 06:44   #165
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Here is a personal experience on a Hunter Passage 450. We were 200 miles off Hatteras when a CG Cutter hailed us for documenting data and number of souls on board. There last words were gale force winds forecasted tonight. Around 7 Pm they hit so suddenly our hull speed hit 12 knots. We were prepared as our main was totally stored in the mast and our genoa was just a sliver just to control and stabilize the vessel. We changed course and vectored a wide downwind broad reach. Waves whipped up to easy 20’ were breaking every which way cslamming the vessel sideways. You could see the freeboard flexing. We turned on our deck lights to better prepare for the breaking waves. We survived but could never sail up the waves as the vessel could not take the pounding. IMHO the Hunter can survive a tough bluewater sail but cannot be sailed like a solid bluewater, tight vessel that can be sailed up the face of waves. It just can’t take the beating. Would I sail a 450 in bluewater passages again? Absolutely but one must sail her in a more tender manner.
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