What does this group think of motorsailers?

[cr180]

Should have mentioned we sail with a 150 genoa and fully battened main and mizzen. With the wind in the teens, the boat reaches well with just the genoa and mizzen.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by FrankC_OR

"Motorsailer" is a pretty subjective word. My boat is a Vickers 45 AC cutter, designed by Dudley Dix and marketed as a motorsailer

VERY subjective! That's a pretty boat, and if I hadn't read the marketing brochure ("She was commissioned in GRP as a performance motor sailer"), I'd never have labeled her as such. Sure, maybe a little heavy, but she carries more canvas than my 43' "performance cruiser!" You may not beat me on a race (you're heavier) but that's not a shabby sailor at all!

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

VERY subjective! That's a pretty boat, and if I hadn't read the marketing brochure ("She was commissioned in GRP as a performance motor sailer"), I'd never have labeled her as such. Sure, maybe a little heavy, but she carries more canvas than my 43' "performance cruiser!" You may not beat me on a race (you're heavier) but that's not a shabby sailor at all!

The definition of a motorsailer is definitely subjective. Some of them are pretty close to a powerboat with sails, others are more of a (maybe slightly under-rigged) sailboat with an engine, drivetrain, and fuel tankage more optimized for covering long distances under power and often a more enclosed helm position.

[jimellifritt]

Originally Posted by Rohan

Been looking at larger sailboats for liveaboard and found a motorsailer that fits the bill. I wasn't even considering a motorsailer but it checks every box on my list. It needs a lot of work, but I love it. Price also allows me to make improvements.

However, the fuel tanks carry 800 gallons, which to me is insanely high for a 50' sailboat. I probably wouldn't ever fill the whole thing, because if I did, the fuel would go bad by the time I got to the bottom of the tank! Displacement is about 50,000 lbs but I don't know if that's with full or empty tanks.

So a question for the group. Like many other people here, I have an ambition to cross an ocean someday. My experience so far is only coastal cruising in a standard sailing boat. Has anyone here tried that in a motorsailer without using engines? How feasible is that? Did it have comfortable motion? (this boat is a full keel btw). And with that much fuel, how much would that affect motion? Would I see a noticeable difference in comfort and performance if I had full tanks vs one-quarter full?

I know it's no speed demon. I don't have data on this boat, but I researched similar boats, and it looks like on average it would be about one knot slower than my current Hunter sailboat. I can live with that.

We are on a 52 foot motor sailer Mandrain 1996. Would not have any other type. Lived aboard 5 years in PacNw to get it ready. In it's history it has crossed Pacific and Atlantic 2 times and Med once. You will enjoy weather capacity, comfort, space and protection. Ours also carries 800 gallons, coming down the coast from Neah Bay WA to Shelter Bay Panama, we were very happy. We can do 5 knots sailing and if motoring cruise at 6-6.5. In NW particularly this style is the best.

[mako]

@Rohan, if the seller knows of your interest and seriousness, then offer him a couple hundred bucks to take you out for 1/2 day in wind/sea conditions that suit you, and see how it behaves.

[Island Time O25]

A few years back I helped a friend move Lancer 45 from FLL to JAX. Its draft was only 4.5'. At about WPB we had to go inside the ICW as that motorsailer's motion was too lively in the GS. The weather was not too bad, the waves were not great but still it was not a comfortable ride. Once inside we had a good trip all the way up to JAX. On the plus side - it was very roomy, with a "large powerboat" feel.

As a counterpoint, in previous several years I helped the same friend (not that he needed my help but for the fun of it and my experience) move Dubois 46, a true sailing machine. We did FLL to BOS run a number of times. Always on the outside as its draft was 9'. Never an issue with the motion sickness (other than for few initial hours at the GS) or liveliness of the ride. Quite a difference between the two.

[Katapult Mike]

Originally Posted by Miyalk

We all have motorsailers if we are honest!

This! Engine sizes on the "auxillary" power we (almost) all run have definitely trended up over a couple of generations. So its all relative.

Can a motor sailor cross oceans under sail? Most definitley, as many others on this thread have attested. I did an East-going Atlantic crossing on Jongert around 70 feet or so years ago. It was great in the trade winds, sailed at a good clip and very comfortable. We left from Bermuda headed for the Azores, and it would have been a much slower trip if we had not motored for the first four days to catch the trades. Big engines nad big tanks have their advantages.

At the time, I thought motor sailors were clunky, slow under sail and just generally not cool. With each passing year, they look better to me.....

[Toccata]

A few photos of what I reckon a motorsailer can be. This is the last of 8, built in 2003.
The look; Drawn by Jim Stuart (Tasmanian) with a lovely sheer and traditional touches such as the wheelhouse and aft tumblehome, then taken to Peter Sullivan (naval architect) to make her sail/motor/behave properly. Fast and comfortable. 135hp, 700 litres of fuel, 22meters loa (47'), 63' mast. Probably better suited to a cool/cold climate.

[Johan Leopard51]

We love sailing but where we boat there are seasons with very little wind (Seychelles) = as in 99% of the charter yachts in ‘prime’’ season are running on motor not sail. So we have a powercat partly for space but also for outer island on an overnight crossing. But is way too overpowered for 99.99% of what we would need - we stick to around 7-8 knots, sometimes 16 knots for a weather reason, and basically never the 25 knots she can do.

In tropics, a big downside on sail boats is the lack of a large covered flybridge. We spend probably ¾ of our days up there in the shade in the breeze.

So an ideal for me would be a 4 berth motorsail cat with each hull having one decent size shared toilet and one decent sized shared shower. Basically have say twin 240Hp (no need for 400Hp), sacrifice some sail area with higher boom to accommodate a proper flybridge. When wind is 10+ we sail, no wind we motor, in-between we might do both.

Have only seen such in some new 75 footers but I need to win the lottery to consider that.

[Icarus]

Will you be happy with motoring and burning two to three gallon of fuel an hour? Maybe more depending on the hp used and engine size.
There is areason why this boat has a 800gal fuel tank.
Motorsailers don't perform well under sail..compared to sailing yachts, especially crossing oceans

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Toccata

A few photos of what I reckon a motorsailer can be. This is the last of 8, built in 2003.
The look; Drawn by Jim Stuart (Tasmanian) with a lovely sheer and traditional touches such as the wheelhouse and aft tumblehome, then taken to Peter Sullivan (naval architect) to make her sail/motor/behave properly. Fast and comfortable. 135hp, 700 litres of fuel, 22meters loa (47'), 63' mast. Probably better suited to a cool/cold climate.

There's a typo there. 22 meters is 72', or 47' is 14 meters. Looking at the pic, it's probably 72'!


She's pretty, and to my eye "looks" like a motor sailor. The mast, if 72', confirms it. At 47', a 63' mast is short but not uncommonly so (my 43' boat has a 63' mast).


The mast comment makes me ponder. Perhaps SA/D is a useful metric. While there are ardent supporters of "true sailboats" that have very low SA/D, it might be useful to categorize a motorosailor as being below some given SA/D value.


Here's a list of some numbers pulled from Sailboatdata.com


Performance Sailboats
Saga 43 -- 20.9
J-46 19.7



"Sturdy" Sailboats
Valiant 42 -- 16.2
Halberg Rassey 43 (1980) -- 15.8


Motorsailors
Island Packet SP Cruiser 42 -- 14.2
Nauticat 441 --13.6


So I would suggest that a SA/D below 15 is a motorsailor.


Note, I found it a challenge to find actual motorsailors to put in the list. It seems that the vast majority of what I could find were one-offs. Or, like my father's Schucker 440, not listed in Sailboatdata

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Will you be happy with motoring and burning two to three gallon of fuel an hour? Maybe more depending on the hp used and engine size.
There is areason why this boat has a 800gal fuel tank.
Motorsailers don't perform well under sail..compared to sailing yachts, especially crossing oceans

I regard my boat merely as a motorsailer or blue water boat thou nobody really knows what's the distinction is from "ordinary" sailboats. It's not just the sailing ability or engine size but a lot of things combined. Besides that there are boats which are not good in either and boats that shine both ways. I burn on gallon/h with engine making 6,5kn and ~1400nm range with motor only without a single canister or bladder tank in the boat. I regard it as a safety feature what most modern production boat don't have.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

There's a typo there. 22 meters is 72', or 47' is 14 meters. Looking at the pic, it's probably 72'!


She's pretty, and to my eye "looks" like a motor sailor. The mast, if 72', confirms it. At 47', a 63' mast is short but not uncommonly so (my 43' boat has a 63' mast).


The mast comment makes me ponder. Perhaps SA/D is a useful metric. While there are ardent supporters of "true sailboats" that have very low SA/D, it might be useful to categorize a motorosailor as being below some given SA/D value.


Here's a list of some numbers pulled from Sailboatdata.com


Performance Sailboats
Saga 43 -- 20.9
J-46 19.7



"Sturdy" Sailboats
Valiant 42 -- 16.2
Halberg Rassey 43 (1980) -- 15.8


Motorsailors
Island Packet SP Cruiser 42 -- 14.2
Nauticat 441 --13.6


So I would suggest that a SA/D below 15 is a motorsailor.


Note, I found it a challenge to find actual motorsailors to put in the list. It seems that the vast majority of what I could find were one-offs. Or, like my father's Schucker 440, not listed in Sailboatdata

Sa/D doesn't tell all. Bigger boats tend sail well even their SA/D is a bit on lower side compared to smaller ones with the same SA(D.

[Toccata]

TeddyDiver; You're absolutely right. My maths has been found wanting.....let's call it a typo (gulp)
Stuart 47 is in fact 47' LOA
Mast 63' above deck
Draft 5' with 7 ton of lead in an integrated keel (not bolt on)
Total displacement 13ton
No 1 is %130. It had a furling boom, now converted to a boom bag and lazy jacks.

[mwaugh]

You are buying a compromise. It's neither a good sailboat or a good motorboat.

Nothing wrong with that, but from your comments you are really looking for a sail boat, and because of that I think you'll always be frustrated and disappointed with how this boat sails.

Mat