Went to the Boatshow Today...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

... Having said that the French and Germans pretty much own the entry level sailboat market and US builders have been lowered into nieche category. That's kinda what happens when you quit innovating and rest on your laurels.

I guess you are right on the spot. I don't think the main reason why European sailboats sell much more has to the with a quality difference but with a design quality difference and I am not talking about interiors only. While European brands have their boats designed by top cutting edge NA and have the interiors designed by top specialist in designing boat interiors American brands persist in having them home designed.

That's where lay that lack of innovation and quality design: how can compete a house designer that all he has done is designed previous boats of the same brands with guys that design top racing boats, maxy yachts, and all sort of innovative sailboats for several production brands?

Of course a better designed boat is not only a boat that for the same built quality has a more agreeable interior but also one that sails better.

I have been saying this for years Probably now is too late because joining this another factor comes in: the diminishing production of American brands and the increasing production of European boats allows European boats to use robotic and have gains with big numbers in all orders to suppliers and that allow them to built cheaper for the same quality.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by so34chi

I really like the Delphia boats. Traditional, conservative construction. What I don't like is the recent move to side-galleys, as opposed to corner-galleys. You can't make lunch when heeled over as easily in the former as the latter. ...

It is not the charter trade but the fact that a side-galley, also called modern galley allows for a much bigger galley, a much bigger refrigerator and more working area. In fact the longitudinal galley is worst for charter since it diminishes the space of the saloon and the number of people that can sit there comfortably and for a week charter you don't need that extra storage space neither a huge refrigerator/freezer.

I agree that they are not as good while sailing but even if some boats don't have them it is not dificult to clip a textile line from one side to another of the bulkheads and have you clipped to it.

For some time European builders offered boats with a choice of the two versions of galleys as option but as almost nobody chose the traditional galley almost all moved to the modern galley without an option for the traditional one cutting production costs.

The truth is that a galley, even in boats that are sailed frequently offshore is much more used while on anchor, at the marina or on benign conditions and in all those conditions the modern galley with its big refrigerator, more storage space and more working space has big advantages.

The new Dufour 382 is a good example of what I am saying. They still offer a traditional L galley and a modern one but I am quite sure that almost nobody is going to choose the L one. Just have a look at the pictures and compare the galleys: The longitudinal galley offers the biggest refrigerator I have ever seen on a 37/38ft boat, a 45ft refrigerator, a nicely integrated micro wave and a huge amount of space for storage.

Photos 382 Grand Large - Dufour Yachts

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Oddly enough, if someone has the cash, getting to the front of the Oyster line isn't a problem, either.

It's a bit odd to lump these two boats together, don't you think? They're quite different brands.

Believe it or not, presently there's a long 18 month to two year wait for a new Oyster. Several boats ahead in the line, then the custom planning with a personal consultant, then the one year build time. Who would have thought?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

It is not the charter trade but the fact that a side-galley, also called modern galley allows for a much bigger galley, a much bigger refrigerator and more working area. In fact the longitudinal galley is worst for charter since it diminishes the space of the saloon and the number of people that can sit there comfortably and for a week charter you don't need that extra storage space neither a huge refrigerator/freezer.

I agree that they are not as good while sailing but even if some boats don't have them it is not dificult to clip a textile line from one side to another of the bulkheads and have you clipped to it.

For some time European builders offered boats with a choice of the two versions of galleys as option but as almost nobody chose the traditional galley almost all moved to the modern galley without an option for the traditional one cutting production costs.



The truth is that a galley, even in boats that are sailed frequently offshore is much more used while on anchor, at the marina or on benign conditions and in all those conditions the modern galley with its big refrigerator, more storage space and more working space has big advantages.

The new Dufour 382 is a good example of what I am saying. They still offer a traditional L galley and a modern one but I am quite sure that almost nobody is going to choose the L one. Just have a look at the pictures and compare the galleys: The longitudinal galley offers the biggest refrigerator I have ever seen on a 37/38ft boat, a 45ft refrigerator, a nicely integrated micro wave and a huge amount of space for storage.

Photos 382 Grand Large - Dufour Yachts

Agree with most of our comments but offshore my wife spends a few hours a day preparing meals/snacks and cleaning up. A real good/safe galley layout will allow a person to be able to use 2 hands to prepare food by simply bracing herself. Some of the side on galleys are designed better than others and bearable for use offshore while others are unsafe and poorly designed for the purpose.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Polux

The truth is that a galley, even in boats that are sailed frequently offshore is much more used while on anchor, at the marina or on benign conditions and in all those conditions the modern galley with its big refrigerator, more storage space and more working space has big advantages.

We've anchored in spots where it was more rocky & rolly then when underway at sea. It would have been difficult if not impossible to prepare a meal without being able to wedge one's self in place and have both hands free for the stove, knives, utensils, etc. I can't see "clipping in" to cook a meal as a practical solution.

Sorry about editing your post.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

We've anchored in spots where it was more rocky & rolly then when underway at sea. It would have been difficult if not impossible to prepare a meal without being able to wedge one's self in place and have both hands free for the stove, knives, utensils, etc. I can't see "clipping in" to cook a meal as a practical solution.

Sorry about editing your post.

Ah yes........... the stability of an extra hull is very useful in those situations...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

We've anchored in spots where it was more rocky & rolly then when underway at sea. It would have been difficult if not impossible to prepare a meal without being able to wedge one's self in place and have both hands free for the stove, knives, utensils, etc. I can't see "clipping in" to cook a meal as a practical solution.

Sorry about editing your post.

Yes, I have been on such anchorages...for a while.... then put the anchor up resuming sailing... slowly making turns to sleep. That's a lot more comfortable.

[gonesail]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

For example it would not make sense for Oyster to build a 30 foot boat.

why not? the small boat market is now flooded with mediocre floating condos. and guess what? people find reasons to like what they see perhaps because there is nothing else out there. done a search on yachtworld lately? if you do not want a hunter or catalina or beneteau then you are out of luck. i think there would be a market for a 30 foot oysters but i guess they are too busy building mega yachts

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by gonesail

why not? the small boat market is now flooded with mediocre floating condos. and guess what? people find reasons to like what they see perhaps because there is nothing else out there. done a search on yachtworld lately? if you do not want a hunter or catalina or beneteau then you are out of luck. i think there would be a market for a 30 foot oysters but i guess they are too busy building mega yachts

Because I don't think they could sell any and even if they did they couldn't make any money. If you think there is a price difference between a 60 foot Oyster and a 60 foot Benni I can't imagine what the difference would be on a 30 foot boat not withstanding that while a 30 footer was a normal size years ago its now more like 40 feet. If you put a 30 foot Oyster in a boat show and charged much more than a 50 foot whatever, you would be going nowhere fast.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Agree with most of our comments but offshore my wife spends a few hours a day preparing meals/snacks and cleaning up. A real good/safe galley layout will allow a person to be able to use 2 hands to prepare food by simply bracing herself. Some of the side on galleys are designed better than others and bearable for use offshore while others are unsafe and poorly designed for the purpose.

I agree that most galleys are poorly designed for offshore use but as I said they are used much more on other situations and most times what is good for offshore use is not good for a maximized work and storage space. Even offshore the real problem is only when going hard upwind, since the boats these days sail with little heel on any other position. My wife on those situations just use to say: "can you put it right for a while?" and I just change tack for the time being

Yes it is a compromise as many others: To each one the right is the one that offers more advantages for the type of sailing and boat use. I prefer the L type galley but my wife prefers the long one...so as it is she that uses more the galley, her will prevail on that point.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

I agree that most galleys are poorly designed for offshore use but as I said they are used much more on other situations and most times what is good for offshore use is not good for a maximized work and storage space. Even offshore the real problem is only when going hard upwind, since the boats these days sail with little heel on any other position. My wife on those situations just use to say: "can you put it right for a while?" and I just change tack for the time being

Yes it is a compromise as many others: To each one the right is the one that offers more advantages for the type of sailing and boat use. I prefer the L type galley but my wife prefers the long one...so as it is she that uses more the galley, her will prevail on that point.

I understand why people really like the inline side orientated galley. It takes less room and more than one can get involved plus it makes the boat feel bigger and its cheaper to build, pretty hard to go wrong with all those benefits.
Offshore there is constant motion as the boat moves back and forth in the waves/swells. The cook has to be secure and the working surfaces must be able to hold items without everything ending up on the sole. Its hard under these conditions to design a galley that works better than some form of U or sometimes an L if it is right across from another counter space. This also allows your sinks to be on the center line allowing them to drain properly on both tacks.
Actually going upwind is easiest for the cook to be stable as all the forces are acting one way.
The other benefit of a good U layout is that the galley can be located next to thee companion way allowing the cook easy communication with the person on watch as well as fresh air to the galley on hot days.
Galley designs that work well for the charter trade seldom are best for offshore.

[Skipper434343]

Someone who like ocean going boat should have a look at the Delphia's , special Delphia 46cc with is long range cruiser with centre cockpit and real deck salon.The have Delphia 40 circumnavigate the world single handed in roaring forties two years ago. This year the Delphia 47 will same track. Modern boat with traditional approach to seaworthiness and safety.I sailed one from Europe to Carib 16.5 day cross from Canary to St.Maarten, I think that not bad for 40 footer.

[scotty c-m]

Interesting points of view, but the thing is that I really love the Catalinas. I like the way they look and they are super comfortable down below. I find them to have a traditional feel and the woodworking is lovely. They sail very well. Not as fast as some, faster than others. The point is that they feel great moving through the water and allow a great continuum of skills for performance. The various boats can handle a lot of conditions, including rougher weather. Just look at how many sail in San Francisco Bay. And yes, many of the larger models go offshore. My wife and I love our 2004 Catalina 400 MKII which we use for coastal cruising. My point is that all those boats at the boat show represent someone's dream. You may have different dreams than the other guy, but there are plenty of designs, and plenty of dreams. So go and enjoy all of them and dream on.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

1. ........ the inline side orientated galley. It takes less room and more than one can get involved plus it makes the boat feel bigger

2. The other benefit of a good U layout is that the galley can be located next to thee companion way allowing the cook easy communication with the person on watch as well as fresh air to the galley on hot days.

3. Galley designs that work well for the charter trade seldom are best for offshore.

1. it makes the boat feel bigger I disagree. The Catalina 42 is a perfect example. The side galley makes the entire saloon feel claustrophobic compared to the port aft galley, which, BTW has TONS more storage space.

2. Yes, in many cases.

3. Yup.

Scotty's comments are very good.

[Skipper434343]

The one I sailed a cross has linear galley and because of the bench was quite comfortable to work the galley even in 40 knots and bumpy, but the 2 cabin version has a L shaped galley that gives more counter space and also place for large freezer, check the Delphia 46CC or the Delphia 47 with C galley on starboard. I thinking to trading my for it.