WA: Bunbury and Return Ocean Race: Finistere (Davidson 50)

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Steadman Uhlich

1. Was a life raft deployed? ...

Some modern ocean raceboats and some modern cruisers have a liferaft on a space specially designed for it in a way that can be taken out with the boat inverted from the water but regarding cruising boats they are kind of an exception.

Older ones without the kind of sterns modern boats have don't have that possibility and have it stored on a cockpit locker or over the cabin. with the boat inverted in a sea way it would be very difficult to deploy the life-raft.

I remember on the case of that first 40.7 that lost the keel and had a young crew that the life-raft was not deployed also.

[El Pinguino]

I recall a yacht being lost of the East Coast due to a manufacturing fault... a notch in the leading edge of the keel that had been 'bogged up' by the builder.

If you lose your keel your yacht will invert on the instant and the survival prospects of anyone below at the time are very slim. Likewise even if your raft has a hydrostatic release that functions the raft will most likely be jammed behind and under lifelines, rig, etc....

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Polux

Some modern ocean raceboats and some modern cruisers have a liferaft on a space specially designed for it in a way that can be taken out with the boat inverted from the water but regarding cruising boats they are kind of an exception.

Older ones without the kind of sterns modern boats have don't have that possibility and have it stored on a cockpit locker or over the cabin. with the boat inverted in a sea way it would be very difficult to deploy the life-raft.

I remember on the case of that first 40.7 that lost the keel and had a young crew that the life-raft was not deployed also.

how would one launch liferaft in third picture if boat inverted?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

how would one launch liferaft in third picture if boat inverted?

I don't understand the question. The liferaft It is maintained in a kind of a depression that will cease to exist when the boat is inverted. The liferaft would just fall out.



The panel that is over the liferaft has hinges and will open with the boat inverted.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't understand the question. The liferaft It is maintained in a kind of a depression that will cease to exist when the boat is inverted. The liferaft would just fall out.

i see, get it now.

thanks

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Polux

..
I believe we all should be concerned with this problem that will become increasingly more frequent on boats with some age.

Many think that a keel is something that will not need maintenance and will last as much time as the hull. The bolts need to be changed way before. They may look impeccable and have metal fatigue.

We need industry guidance and rules regarding inspections.
..

You may want to have again a look at post 14 where there are more relevant information about that.

But the point is that it seems that even if on the forum very few think that mandatory keel inspections are fundamental to solve the problem, others think they are and those are the ones that have the power to make it happen, namely "World Sailing" (ex ISAF).

It seems that they are going to work with the ones that supervise the RCD to make keel design supervision on new models more effective and that means not only mostly on the paper (boat project) and also and not least important, they are going to make mandatory a regular keel inspection performed by experts.

I read it on Yacht.de, the biggest sail magazine (German) in an interview. Roughly translated:

"It is planned to introduce compulsory regular examinations?

The idea is currently an annual exam, but I find that too rigid. If you only sail around Funen with your boat once a year and do not run aground, a check is not necessary in my opinion. There will probably be a criterion that takes into account the sailing time and the number of nautical miles covered....

It does not take much to verify the RCD requirements, which are relatively simple calculations, leverage laws, strength calculations. Where it gets complicated, is in what regards the millionfold loads. In each wave there is a load on the keel, these accumulated loads with different amplitudes can lead to fatigue of constructions. This causes damage that can occur when nobody anticipates it, perhaps even in relatively quiet conditions. This risk should be reduced by regular exams...........

Would that make sense from your point of view? So a kind of boat TÜV for the keel? (TUV is the German car mandatory inspection)

I think that would increase security. The problem is essential. Other areas are more secondary, not life threatening. A rig can come down without endangering the crew, even a rudder loss is drastic, but the yacht is still floating. The consequences of a keel loss, however, are dramatic... often with loss of life. To prevent that, some rules have to be implemented."

http://www.yacht.de/aktuell/panorama...ge2.html#start

Note that World Sailing has only the means to make this mandatory in what regards boats used in ISAF races (that are many).

I am quite sure that they will have full support in EU to integrate these measures on the RCD making it not only a legislation about boat design safety but also about boat inspections in what regards safety.

On other regions for particular boats (not used for racing) it will depend on each country.

[nayu]

ok...so we know all about the keels falling off and the boat...but who are the 2 people who perished in the accident?...i use to do all the offshore races around this part of the world for a while...i wonder if i knew the crew...?

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by nayu

but who are the 2 people who perished in the accident?

The owner of Finistere and the skipper. Both were named in mainstream media reports. Their identities are not a secret.

Take your pick of (depending on your taste for media):

Skipper named as second dead sailor in yacht race tragedy

or

http://www.news.com.au/national/west...dfd44b43f26a90

The police report on the incident has probably been finalised.

Next step, for which we are waiting, will be an inquest.

The inquest will, if the police report has been thorough, make findings about keel detaching and perhaps recommendations about keel maintenance.

[nayu]

thanks Alan,i am in NZ at the moment(have been for a few years),and i don't get "international sailing news"...even the Sydney to Hobart race gets about 3 second report on TV...usually after 30 minutes of cricket news!!!
i didn"t know these guys,but it is still a tragic event...
it made me think that many offshore crew don't even contemplate what could happen if it goes wrong at sea...they get reassurances with EPIRBs and "life jackets"...but nothing replace life and they get a rude shock when people get caught ...doing what they regard as essentially "a safe hobby activity"...

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by nayu

i didn"t know these guys,but it is still a tragic event...
it made me think that many offshore crew don't even contemplate what could happen if it goes wrong at sea...they get reassurances with EPIRBs and "life jackets"

Same here. We practise MOB drill. We brief crew and guests about lifejackets, MOB, LPG, etc. And if anyone asks, we talk about how much water can enter from a hole this big. Thought about rig failures too and have replaced standing rigging and chainplates, and do rig checks and deck checks, including for split pins, cracks, and chafe.

But we've never thought or practised what to do if the keel were to disappear.

Had a sister ship that went down after hitting a whale. And one that lost her rudder.

Longer I sail, the less I know.

[nayu]

yep....!the only course of action seems to either change the keel bolts on racing boats as often as you change the oil in your car(expensive service!)...
or stop pushing boats until they brake-which is all too common...enjoying the gentle cruising life on a boat and taking up lawn bowling for excitements after 60...(lawn bowling on the foredeck...?)

[RaymondR]

From an engineering viewpoint and with a view to consequences there is absolutely no excuse for the keel falling off a boat.

Don't try to fix the problem with mandatory inspection regimes, go to the proximal cause of the problem, bad engineering design and fix that.

[nayu]

ok...this is a bit outside this topic,but lets assume that falling keels are due to "bad engineering design",how do you explain that only some individual boats,in some models,in some brands, have random keels/keel bolts problems...?it's like saying"beneteau,davidson,bavaria,or any other brands"have bad engineering designs...!?surely.if it was the case,it would have already been investigated,proven and prosecuted in courts and liability costs would have shut down these manufacturers...wouldn't it..????!..just guessing...

[nayu]

...just an uneducated query here...why do the keels have to be bolted on boats......old fashion encapsulated keels would solve all this drama...

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by nayu

...just an uneducated query here...why do the keels have to be bolted on boats......old fashion encapsulated keels would solve all this drama...

Actually, I think this in an incorrect assumption, if you're talking about narrow attachment, look at the pictures from the Polina Star, and the Cheeki Rafiki. Imho, the matrices were inadequate.

I'm afraid I agree with your previous allusion, that the cure is in improving the designs, but failing that, perhaps the naval architects among us might suggest ways to keep our racing boats safer. I'm not sure it is a maintenance issue, although Pollux suggests it is a bite we should suffer, and he's not alone, UNCIVILIZED used to write that once a year keel attachment checking was mandatory for a safe boat.

Ann