Visiting foreign ports without insurance?

[Madwand]

Originally Posted by buzzstar

Since you are worried, please start a crown fund of the worried to pay for the coverage of those you do not have it. You can jolly well buy coverage to protect yourself against the great uninsured.

Are you offering to cover our deductibles, the premium increases after filing a claim, and all the items that insurance doesn't pay for when an uninsured person destroys our boats? Because that's some great advice, for us to insure ourselves and not care if someone who can't pay sinks our boat.

[donradcliffe]

While I have liability coverage on my automobiles, I also have uninsured motorists protection, because I know that even though liability insurance is required in my state, there are a lot of motorists on the road who don't have it. So instead of whinging, why don't you all get uninsured boaters protection? Its probably as available and as inexpensive as worldwide liability protection.

Last I heard, Pantaenius Europe wouldn't insure US boats, and Pantaenius America wouldn't insure boats worth under $500k. Maybe some US owners can chime in and tell us how much it now costs to carry $5m liability only coverage worldwide, and whether a survey is required.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Junk Viking

(...)

Plenty of marinas as well as customs require liability insurance to allow entry.

Name the many countries where the customs require to see your liability insurance PLS.

Saying PLENTY without naming ONE is simply not good enough.

Some posters named Mexico.

In Spain it is obligatory but not checked by the Customs.

To be useful, we must be more specific. Even if later our information gets updated or corrected.

NAMES PLS.

Cheers,
b.

[Mike OReilly]

Insurance is a risk mitigation tool that some (most) people use. You buy insurance based on the risks you perceive. If you percieve that uninsured people are a significant enough risk, then there is insurance you can can purchase to deal with it.

I completely agree that everyone must take responsibility for their own actions and own choices. If you wish to go without insurance then you better have the willingness and reasonable resources to deal with possible events where you are found negligent. For most people, buying liability insurance is the easy and best way to do this, but it’s not the only way.

For those ready to pounce with the moralizing comments about how irresponsible it is not to have insurance, I ask you: what do you do when your liability limit is hit? Are you prepared to make everyone good when you pinball off many multi-million dollar yachts, or when you cause a fire that burns dozens of boats? Liability insurance is bought with a limit, so does this make you irresponsible for the bearing the risk of not being able to deal with these higher potential costs?

Insurance is a tool to mitigate risk. It’s not the only tool, and in many cases it’s not the best tool.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Insurance is a risk mitigation tool that some (most) people use. You buy insurance based on the risks you perceive. If you percieve that uninsured people are a significant enough risk, then there is insurance you can can purchase to deal with it.

I completely agree that everyone must take responsibility for their own actions and own choices. If you wish to go without insurance then you better have the willingness and reasonable resources to deal with possible events where you are found negligent. For most people, buying liability insurance is the easy and best way to do this, but it’s not the only way.

For those ready to pounce with the moralizing comments about how irresponsible it is not to have insurance, I ask you: what do you do when your liability limit is hit? Are you prepared to make everyone good when you pinball off many multi-million dollar yachts, or when you cause a fire that burns dozens of boats? Liability insurance is bought with a limit, so does this make you irresponsible for the bearing the risk of not being able to deal with these higher potential costs?

Insurance is a tool to mitigate risk. It’s not the only tool, and in many cases it’s not the best tool.

Well said Mike.
I think the real value here in this discussion is to identify the huge differences in the Insurance Market for yachts in different areas.

Assuming "liability" to others from damaged caused by your own yacht.... is the basic standard we try to identify as an insured risk of USD 3 Million

Let's have some real examples of what the annual premium would be to have that coverage worldwide??

Some say it costs $200-250 a year..... I would do that in a heartbeat

But in Asia, I am quoted about $5k to $8000 a year and they will not cover unless I buy hull insurance as well

Let's start out with comparing the real numbers and see if we can help each other out

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

...Some say it costs $200-250 a year..... I would do that in a heartbeat

But in Asia, I am quoted about $5k to $8000 a year and they will not cover unless I buy hull insurance as well

Let's start out with comparing the real numbers and see if we can help each other out

Funny you should suggest this Pelagic, b/c I’m in the midst of constructing a survey that will try and suss out exactly what you suggest: What are people actually paying, and for what coverage. I’m refining the survey right now. I want it to be simple, yet hopefully useful. It will be via Survey Monkey so all data will be anonymous.

Insurance comes up over and over. With our collective experience we should be able to pool our data so we can see what it actually cost, based on locality and the types of coverages.

I’ll post a link to the survey once it is ready.

[Pelagic]

Terrific idea Mike and Thanks!

Trying to compare apples with apples is the first step not just in cost but on the policy exceptions where you are dumped by your insurer as having no coverage.

PS. Please post on this thread when you launch the survey as I am subscribed to this one

[Scotty Kiwi]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Saying you will never drag anchor or never damage another boat in any way is like saying you will never run aground.

I will never run aground !!!!

(until a buy another boat, then I'll be back to running aground about once every five years, as a rough average).

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Scotty Kiwi

I will never run aground !!!!

(until a buy another boat, then I'll be back to running aground about once every five years, as a rough average).

Well you do know what they say about boaters running aground? There are three kinds.

Those that have already run aground.

Those that are going to run aground.

Those that might be not completely truthful about having run aground (or as it's said these days, those that present alternate facts).

[Sailormantx]

Marinas in Horta and Praia da Vitoria in the Azores have asked to see insurance papers. The only other place I was asked for it was by a customs boat who boarded me in Las Palmas in the Canaries, a month after I had cleared in. Do your research before you pick you next Port to avoid surprises!
Try Offshore Risk Management, I have used them before when I go somewhere insurance is needed. Most USA insurance companies will not even consider insuring a non production steel boat like mine, and the few that would wanted a survey which put the total cost to the point of being ridiculous. I have checked out every insurance company that other cruisers have told me about and have been told repeatedly that they do not insure USA flagged vessels.
Mike OReilly I will be watching for your survey with some considerable interest as I sometimes go where I need to get insurance!

[hafa]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Well said Mike.
I think the real value here in this discussion is to identify the huge differences in the Insurance Market for yachts in different areas.

Assuming "liability" to others from damaged caused by your own yacht.... is the basic standard we try to identify as an insured risk of USD 3 Million

Let's have some real examples of what the annual premium would be to have that coverage worldwide??

Some say it costs $200-250 a year..... I would do that in a heartbeat

But in Asia, I am quoted about $5k to $8000 a year and they will not cover unless I buy hull insurance as well

Let's start out with comparing the real numbers and see if we can help each other out

QFT. I continue my quest to find an insurer, but not a single one will insure a boat in my area for any criteria at any premium. This includes brokers.

[Paul L]

Some friends of ours just cleared into Rhodes in Greece coming from the Suez Canal. From their blog looks like insurance was required

We completed all check-in procedures, except providing the required proof of boat insurance which we still did not have. We had a heck of a time finding coverage. Insurance companies we contacted would either say they didn't insure Canadian boats or they wanted a survey or simply didn't respond to our emails! But we finally got the basic insurance according to the Greek requirements

[chuckr]

We have checked in and out of about 40 countries and I am not sure who asked and who did not ask. As we check in we give them basically 3 documents - boat registration, insurance, crew list - along of course with our passports. they can pick and choose what they want. But in Montenegro they wanted 1m euro liability and we only had 500kusd so had to get a rider - and someplace in Black Sea I think we had to carry extra liability -

BUT wow Jim Cate hit the nail on the head and so true -

[scallowayuk]

Originally Posted by Variant

My idea of sailing is to just go, to feel free. I don't want to be restricted in one area by an insurance company. I also figure that if I sink while crossing an ocean I got more immediate things to worry about. Plus I only spent 15 grand on my boat including all the upgrades so I will hardly break the bank. What I was wondering is would they allow me to enter through customs without insurance papers

hi in spain and portugal third party is a requirement although not always checked, in madiera funchal they check even at anchor. same applies at las palmas cran canaria at anchor ive never been checked by customs but in las palmas you pay for anchoring at the marina, they told me get imsurance or not allowed to anchor third party is not too expensive and saves a lot uf hassle, most marinas require it although i avoid marinas if possible, but thats sometimes difficult as some places councils charge more to anchor than marinas depends where your sailing ,regards.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Name the many countries where the customs require to see your liability insurance PLS.

Saying PLENTY without naming ONE is simply not good enough.

Some posters named Mexico.

In Spain it is obligatory but not checked by the Customs.

To be useful, we must be more specific. Even if later our information gets updated or corrected.

NAMES PLS.

Cheers,
b.

Port police in Greece often asks for liability insurance to issue or stamp the DEKPA. I assume they can ask anytime they see you as well but they usually don't do that. Think the requirement is 500000 € plus some specific numbers for cleanup etc.
My liability for a 30 feet sailing boat, worldwide cover with Pantaenius is less than 60 USD a year, can't see any reason to go without.