US quality boats

[Joli]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yes, if you use a percentage of estimated new build price then obviously a more expensive boat results in higher cost. But that doesn’t mean it works like that in reality. If you have the chance, read the relevant chapters on that in the Cruising Encyclopedia from Steve Dashew. It starts with considering three distinct parts of a cruising design sailboat: the hull, the interior and the rig. On average, each of those takes a third of total cost. This means that hull length only makes up for 1/3rd of the price. For our boat, 40% of the length has no interior. That changes things drastically. Also, our sail plan is so radically different that we get very good performance (racer-cruiser) from a very modest surface area. A new jib for us has the same cost as the genoa for a 40’ sloop.

Another major factor has to do with initial build quality. The price of a new boat can be based on 30 layers of varnish on the salon table or the money can be put into less eye catching parts like layup method, choice of hatches etc. This will lead to very different costs of keep up later on.

That's why I use percentage of new replacement cost.

If it's a more expensive boat initially it will take more money to keep it in like new condition as it ages. A plastic sole doesn't take the same amount of money to maintain as a teak and holy sole with 15 coats of vanish. The same with fake teak decks versus real teak decks. Or rod rigging versus 1 by 19. Or long boarding a hull perfectly fair and painting with three coats of Awlgrip and two clear coats versus gelcoat. They list of differences is fairly endless.

I'm not saying one building practice is better then another but that the cost to build and maintain are different. More expensive boats have a higher maintenance cost to keep in like new condition. This can be reflected as a percentage of new cost.

What percentage of new replacement do you spend per year on average?

[SV-Viento]

Originally Posted by LastMango

Based on the boats listed in the OP, I would assume he is looking for a quality built cruiser that is more readily available in the US market. Island Packet has been mentioned maybe 3 times in this thread with no responses whatsoever. I don't understand why you other folks are ignoring the IP brand.

I'm in the US and recently bought an IP 440 after looking for over a year. It checked almost all the boxes for me. YMMV.

I think your observation is fair. My take is that IP is well made but dated. Where the recent designs listed by the op have more contemporary design themes. No better or worse in this case just different. Most of this was mentioned up thread.

JMO BUT There are still so many choices of builders and designers available all over the developed world ITS really a win for the consumer make a list of the elements you want in your boat and good chance you can find it. For the op, location of build must be important. For me, I couldn’t care less where it’s built as long as the quality and design elements met my personal (mostly subjective) criteria.

[Large Luke]

Shannon 38 Ketch. Nothing else need be said.

[Pablito]

I always would prefer an European boat instead an American, as it was affordable.
Who would buy a GM car, as he could afford an Mercedes Benz or Audi

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Joli

That's why I use percentage of new replacement cost.

If it's a more expensive boat initially it will take more money to keep it in like new condition as it ages. A plastic sole doesn't take the same amount of money to maintain as a teak and holy sole with 15 coats of vanish. The same with fake teak decks versus real teak decks. Or rod rigging versus 1 by 19. Or long boarding a hull perfectly fair and painting with three coats of Awlgrip and two clear coats versus gelcoat. They list of differences is fairly endless.

I'm not saying one building practice is better then another but that the cost to build and maintain are different. More expensive boats have a higher maintenance cost to keep in like new condition. This can be reflected as a percentage of new cost.

What percentage of new replacement do you spend per year on average?

Well I guess new replacement would be $2m or so… maybe 0.25% ?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Pablito

I always would prefer an European boat instead an American, as it was affordable.
Who would buy a GM car, as he could afford an Mercedes Benz or Audi

Ford Mustang, Dodge Charger, Chevrolet Corvette, Chevrolet Camaro, Jeep Wrangler are all well above a boring Mercedes or Audi.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Ford Mustang, Dodge Charger, Chevrolet Corvette, Chevrolet Camaro, Jeep Wrangler are all well above a boring Mercedes or Audi.

None of those go round corners ! , unlike Audi

And anyone that’s rated those above Audi , have never driven serious Audi vehicles

I used to own a dodge charger a old “ Vette” and a Jeep , none could corner well , the charger has awesome torque but the chassis sucks. Audi’s torque sensing Quattro system is easy the best there is.

Audi engineer their cars differently , very few US cars can handle like a European sports car.

Funny just like sail boats , Europe retains most of the high end car companies
too. Must be doing something right ,

I spent years in the US and European engine assembly business and been in most auto plants around the world. I was quite the petrol head for a while ( a few bad crashes thought me sense! ) , the European performance car philosophy is very different , much more highly engineered rather then simply big engines.

High end European engineering coupled with a particular style aesthetic , whether cars or boats seems to sell well and attracts buyers from all over the world , it’s one thing the old continent does well. From my personal experience , US engineering is functional and reliable but aesthetically poor or crude. a walk around METS illustrates this well as equipment from all over the world is on display

( don’t get me wrong , I like functional engineering and there ain’t no substitute for cubic inches ! , but I recognise the old continent has the style bit as well )

[outbound_308]

SV-Viento,
It's just the point of buying abroad that I'm finding a little intimidating. It might not be a big deal, you just don't know what you don't know.

Still keep coming back to the Amel 54. I like things that have a place for everything and everything is in it's place. Retrofitting systems, instead of a boat that was just designed to have those systems seems to be a lesser way to go.

I'm also in the position that I can buy a boat based on practical reasons, systems access, protected helm, easy access runs for electrical etc.

I just want to make sure there wasn't something I was missing in my own market before I start scheduling trips to Europe.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by outbound_308

SV-Viento,
It's just the point of buying abroad that I'm finding a little intimidating. It might not be a big deal, you just don't know what you don't know.

Still keep coming back to the Amel 54. I like things that have a place for everything and everything is in it's place. Retrofitting systems, instead of a boat that was just designed to have those systems seems to be a lesser way to go.

I'm also in the position that I can buy a boat based on practical reasons, systems access, protected helm, easy access runs for electrical etc.

I just want to make sure there wasn't something I was missing in my own market before I start scheduling trips to Europe.

Realistically, any boat buying is going to be in Europe , almost certainly within the EU or the continental US. In reality “ abroad “ is a frame of mind. The actual process is largely identical , consisting of initial search , inspection , broker interaction , booking deposit , survey , sail trial and finial money and paperwork. Most brokers function in English and will be knowledgable about any local market peculiarities.

The US despite people often thinking otherwise is a very bureaucratic country with lots of paperwork and processes. Some other countries have very few constraints on these types of transactions. I’ve bought or sold boats in the Ireland , US , U.K. Holland , Germany , Sweden , france and Greece and the processes are largely similar.

Boat buying is often trans national. Just the way it is. Expand your horizons and don’t worry. This is especially true if you are seeking a niche boat .

Certainly if you want choice Europe has a far bigger range but good boats can be found everywhere.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Well I guess new replacement would be $2m or so… maybe 0.25% ?

$5k a year to maintain a 64' boat? Sails, canvas, cushions, standing rigging, running rigging, ground tackle, dock lines, top side maintenance, deck maintenance, engine maintenance, running gear maintenance, bottom paint, batteries, electrical, electronics, slipping fees.... If you do all that for that size boat you're doing well.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Joli

$5k a year to maintain a 64' boat? Sails, canvas, cushions, standing rigging, running rigging, ground tackle, dock lines, top side maintenance, deck maintenance, engine maintenance, running gear maintenance, bottom paint, batteries, electrical, electronics, slipping fees.... If you do all that for that size boat you're doing well.

Not a chance

[outbound_308]

goboatingnow,
Yeah that's what I am finding, basically this post was to be sure I doing my due diligence.

Some people have said, well you can always find boat xyz in the Caribbean and that's true. But if you want to actually shop amels for example I feel like you need to go to Europe and look at several examples.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by outbound_308

goboatingnow,
Yeah that's what I am finding, basically this post was to be sure I doing my due diligence.

Some people have said, well you can always find boat xyz in the Caribbean and that's true. But if you want to actually shop amels for example I feel like you need to go to Europe and look at several examples.

Yes indeed. Beautiful new style Amel 54 sold in my marina recently. I also like the new sloop configuration looks more practical then the ketch too.

Personally I find some of the Amels too quirky that Ive sailed , with a lot of custom amel only gear. But they are fine boats nonetheless. Personally I’d prefer a trintella

Good luck on your search and safe travelling. Flying these days in one major PITA at present.

[outbound_308]

Not aware of Trintella I'll check them out.

That's the fickleness of the Amel customers lol. Don't like all the bespoke Amel parts. They change the furlers out for Harkens and all the Amel guys all complain about how much better the old Amel ones were.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Joli

$5k a year to maintain a 64' boat? Sails, canvas, cushions, standing rigging, running rigging, ground tackle, dock lines, top side maintenance, deck maintenance, engine maintenance, running gear maintenance, bottom paint, batteries, electrical, electronics, slipping fees.... If you do all that for that size boat you're doing well.

Yes, easily. I have years of zero expense. Of course we do all maintenance and repairs ourselves.