Two fatalities in the Sydney to Hobart race

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

Your reference to the Manawanui sinking should tell anyone all they need to know…

N

So I am curious about your comment. All I know about the Manawanui sinking was that it hit the reef because the OOD did not know how to use the autopilot. I don't know whether the captain was on the bridge at the time of the incident, but the captain is the person responsible for assigning and training the crew, and is held liable for any screwups.

In the case of the Fitzgerald, the captain first became aware of the problem when the bow of the containership pushed through his stateroom. He and the Exec were fired, but the woman who was OOD, almost hit another ship before the collision, completely lost the plot, never consulted with the woman running the combat information center "because they didn't like each other", never looked at her AIS, and violated her standing orders to wake the captain if she was getting within 2000 yards, she got off. That's DEI in action.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

So I am curious about your comment. All I know about the Manawanui sinking was that it hit the reef because the OOD did not know how to use the autopilot. I don't know whether the captain was on the bridge at the time of the incident, but the captain is the person responsible for assigning and training the crew, and is held liable for any screwups.

In the case of the Fitzgerald, the captain first became aware of the problem when the bow of the containership pushed through his stateroom. He and the Exec were fired, but the woman who was OOD, almost hit another ship before the collision, completely lost the plot, never consulted with the woman running the combat information center "because they didn't like each other", never looked at her AIS, and violated her standing orders to wake the captain if she was getting within 2000 yards, she got off. That's DEI in action.

Relevance to current thread is what exactly?
Or are you just going for a trifecta in getting threads closed?
Smart money is on the latter.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Relevance to current thread is what exactly?
Or are you just going for a trifecta in getting threads closed?
Smart money is on the latter.

Ta - you beat me to it.

DEI - or rants about it - have zero relevance to this thread, which was purely setup to cover the tragic loss of two well liked yachtsmen.

Again, condolences to the families and on a more positive note, a great outcome for the MOB who was recovered after being swept off his vessel.

N

[Montanan]

Unfortunate and sad happening but can be an incidence for learning a lesson and remediation action.

Seems like there may be need of use of boom brakes and / or preventers, when broad reaching or running, especially in harsh weather conditions when the action and the forces are magnified.

Would be interesting to learn if such protective devices were employed or if the race organizers opt to require such in the future to mitigate against the forceful shifting of booms and main tackle.

As to another man overboard incidence, why aren't proper retention harnessing being utilized? Geez, just clip in when coming out of the companion way from down below. This isn't rocket science just safe basic marine practice. Glad they noticed the person had departed ship and was located.

As to ranting comments regarding DEI , please just quit always.

[Jim Cate]

As to another man overboard incidence, why aren't proper retention harnessing being utilized? Geez, just clip in when coming out of the companion way from down below.

As I read it this chap was indeed clipped on... and pinned under the lee side of the yacht and near to drowning. He deliberately un-clipped in order to get to the surface and breathe. Likely a good choice in this instance. And kudos to t he crew for the recovery.

Mod hat on now: Further discussion of DEI will lead to deletion and sanctions, so just stop it!

Jim

[fxykty]

A boom brake strong enough to restrain a 6, 7, 8, or 9m boom on a racing yacht would rip the decks out of the boat of not breaking the boom - mid-boom is not the place to try to restrain a boom on a racing yacht.

As for preventers secured to the end of the boom and taken to midships or forward to restrain the boom that is OK for cruising. When racing you are adjusting the position of the boom with every wave and every wind change. A preventer would be unworkable.

Tragic accidents are exactly that, and hopefully no coroner will be mandating preventers, or higher boom positions, or mid-boom sheeting, or whatever else.

Every race boat I have been on in recent years has had clearly defined danger areas for mainsheet sweep. Crews have to remember to move through those areas quickly and with awareness. Those areas are extensive and a crash gybe suddenly makes a safe windward position into a danger position. Crash gybes are not that common with good crews and steerers, while wipeouts are more common when pushing hard. It is racing after all and races are not won by easing off when the winds gets stronger.

The call to stop racing and switch to survival mode has to be made by each individual crew. Though the weather this year seems to be a typical southerly front followed by a moderate but not overly powerful gale out of Bass Strait. Wind conditions not so bad but generally the waves really stand up due to the East Australia Current flowing into the relatively shallow waters down there. That throws boats around and in the dark especially you can’t brace yourself for what you can’t see.

[Montanan]

The load of a boom brake is correlated to the friction that is applied to slow the motion of the boom athwartship, thus is easily calculated and would be far less than the sudden load on the traveler of the main for a non-brake restricted gybe of a boom. The load on the deck can be easily handled with proper attachment design. Additionally, spring relief can be incorporated to lower the peak loading. The boom brake is not intended to stop the boom but instead to slow the boom so as to lower its hazard potential.

[Greatest Lakes]

As sad as it is, every sailor knew the risks prior to departure. They all went anyway. It's a huge bucket list item for many sailors. There is some bravery required in sailing, and this is an excellent example as to why.

I don't think additional safety items would have helped. First incident was at midnight, and the next near 2am. High winds and cold, cloudy weather. It was dark. It was loud. It was racing downwind.

In our cruisers, we'd have reduced sail, a preventer, and probably adjusted heading a bit so as not to have to fuss with the rig at night. Not an option in a race of this caliber.

If you told all the sailors beforehand that 2 would perish, and 27 of the boats would be forced to drop out, I can almost guarantee that they would have gone anyway. Sailors, particularly racing sailors, are just built different.

Keep an eye on Pip Hare too.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

As I read it this chap was indeed clipped on... and pinned under the lee side of the yacht and near to drowning. He deliberately un-clipped in order to get to the surface and breathe. Likely a good choice in this instance. And kudos to t he crew for the recovery.

Mod hat on now: Further discussion of DEI will lead to deletion and sanctions, so just stop it!

Jim

Seemingly if the crew member was pinned underwater below the lee side of the yacht, then the harness and / or tethering arrangement was inappropriate. Albeit kudos for the presence of mind and ability to unclip when being drowned and the ability of the crewmates to provide for recovery.

One should not be able to fall with one's head under the water when properly tethered and only in rare situations should a crew be traveling on the leeward side of a yacht, especially in challenging conditions where one could be easily swept off their feet due to proximity of waves and the force of water derived from a rapidly moving boat. With a proper short tethering arrangement, one might end up having one's feet sliding in the water on the lee side of the boat, but never be able to have one's head or chest lay submerged.

That being said:

[clownfishsydney]

The shore based wind stations show no change of wind during the entire time these two incidents occurred. The wind was from aft and gusting to 40 knots. Must have been some isolated wind changes.

Arctos is a sail training vessel, so more than likely a percentage of the crew were relatively inexperienced. It runs training sails up and down the New South Wales coast, we log it on and off a lot at Marine Rescue NSW.

Note that one boat ended up in Jervis Bay and the other at Batemans Bay.

[Montanan]

FYI regarding boom brakes.

Differentiate between a boom brake that is implemented to slow the transition of the boom and a boom brake that has been locked down and implemented to be more like a preventer as the peak loads of a preventer configuration are extreme versus the frictional load of brake mechanism.

Informative article:

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...th-boom-brakes

[Factor]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Why did someone else bring up the subject that monos are more dangerous?

That would be me, because they are. I have done about 9000 miles ocean racing about 6000 of it on multis and 3000 on monos, (give or take). on every mono the boom, tackle, sheet etc was in the cockpit with the crew. These were racing monos. On all bar one multi the mainsheet boom and tackle were not in the cockpit with the crew, these were racing multis, and yes I am well aware that cruising boats can and will be different. On one multi that are exposure to going overboard from the cockpit, on all the other multis there wasn't. Not being critical or attacking - it's just a fact of life, they present more challenges of the types that demonstrably kill people.

[GordMay]

Defending champion, “LawConnect”, captained by Christian Beck, won the Sydney to Hobart race line honours, in the early hours [just after 2:30 a.m.] of Saturday morning, with an elapsed time of 1 day, 13 hours, 35 minutes, and 13 seconds, for the 628-nautical mile (722 miles, 1,160 kilometers) race.
‘Celestial V70' finished second, about 2 1/2 hours behind ‘LawConnect’, and ‘Wild Thing 100' was third, about 25 minutes behind Celestial.
Of the 104 starters, 29 had retired at sea, or in port.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Seemingly if the crew member was pinned underwater below the lee side of the yacht, then the harness and / or tethering arrangement was inappropriate. Albeit kudos for the presence of mind and ability to unclip when being drowned and the ability of the crewmates to provide for recovery.

One should not be able to fall with one's head under the water when properly tethered and only in rare situations should a crew be traveling on the leeward side of a yacht, especially in challenging conditions where one could be easily swept off their feet due to proximity of waves and the force of water derived from a rapidly moving boat. With a proper short tethering arrangement, one might end up having one's feet sliding in the water on the lee side of the boat, but never be able to have one's head or chest lay submerged.

That being said:

Have you ever been on a racing yacht while racing? Short tethers are not used as they are too restricting to movement, except for the helmsperson who needs to stay close to the wheel or tiller regardless of what else is happening. The rest of the crew is either sitting on the rail or tending to a certain piece of equipment and needs to be ready to jump to any other task that is needed. Racing yachts typically, until you get to mini maxi size at 70 feet, have two jacklines running full length forward from the cockpit either side of the mast and any cabin trunk, plus another down the midline of the cockpit (or one either third of a full width open cockpit). Anywhere forward of the mast it is narrow enough to go over the lifeline, or be pinned against the inside of the lifelines, during an uncontrolled fall due to sudden knockdown.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Greatest Lakes

Keep an eye on Pip Hare too.

Seems she's made it safely to port after being dismasted.. set up a jury rig to cover the 800nm to shore.