Top Down Asymmetrical Spinnaker Furler

[SaltyMetals]

I had both spi and asym in socks on a previous boat (Bene 12m). I agree w FB Fisher that this is difficult solo, i also found that putting the tack of the asym v close to the tack of the genoa was asking for trouble w a wrap of the sail around the genoa/forestay. Had it happen numerous times.

On my recent boat (Jeanneau 43ds) i added a bowsprit and TDF for a 100 sq m asym. However i also often had the problem of the reverse wrap. I am still trying to find the best solution but number ONE importance is that the torsion rope has to be seriously tensioned to furl or unfurl. I say "seriously" because i find i cannot get the high tension on a manual winch so i use the electric winch on the slower gear setting. I thought i might break something but a professional onboard assured me it was OK. Secondly, I shortened the strop on the tack from about 1.5 m down to 0.5 m. Thirdly, another trick i learnt is that before furling with the sail still flying you should unfurl about 20-30turns until you feel a little resistance. What this does is to take out the stored twist in the torsion rope and i think that it is too much stored twist that causes the reverse wrap problem when unfurling. Once the sail is flying it is OK to relax the tension on the halyard a bit so i mark my halyard at the spinlock so i know what i need for hi tension and what is ok once a little relaxed. When furling i furl at about 150 AWA so there is enough wind to keep the sail full but it is not under pressure. This is often when i am sailing solo so everything is done from the cockpit. While unfurling is easy (dont get yr feet in the line as it flies out v rapidly), furling takes a little work so i usually put the line on the electric winch. Another tip, Selden does a very nice assembly with pulleys and two cleats to lock to furl & unfurl.

So that is where i have got to so far but am still learning how best to use the sail and am open to other suggestions.

I agree w Islander that it is very frustrating if you get a reverse wrap but i usually end up giving it the washing line treatment between two trees because it is almost impossible to sort out the mess on the boat.

[kryg]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Hi I am a curious as to how you have difficulty using the sock, blow the tack, the sail becomes a large flag behind the main, pull sock down over flapping sail, you end up with a large sausage up the mast, ease the sheet then lower the whole thing down into the usual stowage.

I used a sock many times, on Skoiern IV a 15-meter sailing boat, with a sock setup the only Very Important thing to keep in mind is never ever let the sock lanyard go once the sock is pulled up to the head of the spinnaker. it must be tied down onto the deck, or you will be fishing from one of your spreaders with a boat hook trying to grab the end of it. Otherwise, you will not be able to snuff it when you need too. I would not use a top down setup, when the sock will do.

I know this from experience, it is not fun when the boat is surfing towards land and you need to get the kite down pronto. While your sock lanyard is flying in the wind out of reach! Other than this issue, don't bother with a top down gear, really you need crew to handle any snag problems that will occur.

[Fbfisher]

Thanks so much for the reply’s. On my setup, raising/dousing the sock requires attaching/releasing the beads that harness the tack to the furled jib - that puts me on a pitching foredeck. With the sock flopping around and the sock lines flailing about. While launching and while dousing. Presetting the tack downhaul and sheets is a good idea, but my wife won’t let me out on the foredeck dealing with what looks to her like a chaotic situation (which it often does) while she’s aboard, and that’s most of the time.

I wondered if the beads on the Profurl are a real solution or just design feature hype. Appreciate the real world endorsement, particularly since two rigger’s goto recommended setup is the Selden.

Adding foam to the luff of my asym is an interesting idea. I’ll talk to my sailmaker about doing that. It does not impede the free (unattached) luff shape?

I currently tack the asym to the anchor roller, and not sure my spin halyard comes out far enough from the masthead to make room in front of the furled genny, for a asym furled- though I’ve seen an extension bracket for this purpose. The high load on the halyard has been a common theme. I guess the forces on the anchor roller are fine for a socked asym, but with no bobstay to counter the strong upward forces, the roller may not work with the high torsion line. A bowsprit extension is the recommendation from at least one person (which is removed when not in use).

The other theme I see is little or no tension on the sheet when furling. Do you just let it fly, or keep some tension to keep the sail furling in orderly? Most videos promoting a furler seem to show tension on the sheet. Pulling the tack down before furling is another helpful tip.

Again, thanks for sharing your insights and experience.

[jt11791]

Originally Posted by Fbfisher

Thanks so much for the reply’s. On my setup, raising/dousing the sock requires attaching/releasing the beads that harness the tack to the furled jib - that puts me on a pitching foredeck.

Do you need to do that? Why attach to the furled jib? Try just tacking it to the anchor roller.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Islander53

Top down furlers are amazing until there not.

I have a harken reflex furler on a 53' boat with a very big spinnaker . When working properly it was easy to single hand the spinnaker. I used it about 5 times , until one day I needed to roll the spinnaker up in a hurry when the wind picked up. I accidentally rolled the spinnaker up while the sheet was still kind of tight. The spinnaker somehow back wrapped it's self . Long story short . 5 months later I still have a spinnaker which is rolled up in such a way it cannot be un rolled . It will un furl a small amount then the sail is rolled the opposite direction and begins to tighten. I have 20+ all day attempts on and off the boat trying to unfurl the sail. I've had people a lot smarter than me try to solve the puzzle with no luck

So now I have a $5k furler with a $5k sail that I will most likely end up cutting off the furler

No, take the whole thing down and cart it up to the nearest dog-poop free lawn (if such a thing exists anymore) and resolve the issue.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Hi I am a curious as to how you have difficulty using the sock, blow the tack, the sail becomes a large flag behind the main, pull sock down over flapping sail, you end up with a large sausage up the mast, ease the sheet then lower the whole thing down into the usual stowage.

Don't most people blow the sheet?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Fbfisher

I have an asym in a sock and I’m thinking I’d likely get more use of it if I installed it on a furler. I have found it difficult managing the sock single handed. My wife won’t let me do it when it’s just the two of us because she terrified watching me wrestle that thing on the pitching foredeck getting it up and down. My thoughts are:
1) top down furler (TDF) let’s me use the sail more often and more easily
2) the sail is deployed and furled from the safety of the cockpit
3) our Wednesday night races typically have a 1-2 mile down wind leg, a TDF makes using it in these races possible.

4) single handed I can rig, deploy and furl myself. A sock is a crazy dance on the foredeck and nearly impossible alone.

5) will I need to install a bow spirt or can I mount the tack to my anchor roller as I do the socked asym?

What have I missed, what am I wrong about? And yes it’s expensive, but money isn’t an obstacle when getting to use the sail, with added safety and convenience is achieved.

Looking forward to your input.

OK,

1. Send wifey to the foredeck, It'll do her good.
2. Yeah, I agree, Socks are a hassle, Why not just lose the sock and pull it down without a sock, we do it ALL the time, double handed. Works fast, and easy. Just have the best steerer steering.
3. Wait, Racing? Whoa, I don't get it. If you are racing are you doing it double handed? With wifey? Knock that off. Get some crew or ditch the kite for those races.

Bottom line, too many folks look to buying something to make something else easier. It rarely works, There are always complications. Stick with the basics. Keep it simple. Buying a solution isn't going to solve your problems. Learn to set and dowse the assym kite w/o a sock or a furler. It is easy

[Dougtiff]

As a Rigger, i suggest you remove the furler/sail, and get it on the ground and work on it there, it hasto come apart, nice location where you are, stopped there a number of month's back, while delivering a boat to San Diego.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Don't most people blow the sheet?

Don't know about your setup, mine has a snap shackle on the tack, the sheets are cow hitched to the clew and they provide a measure of control when the tack is no longer connected.

[ilCigno]

I do use my gennaker with a top-down furler on my 29' boat with great success. I installed the furler to be able to use the gennaker solo sailing. Wouldn't want anything else! Some remarks: there has to be sufficient space between the forestay and the top swivel. I installed a bracket on my mast with the top block to create that space.
My boat has no bowsprit, the furler is mounted on the pullpit. The forces are quite high so this is only possible due to the sturdy nature of my pullpit.
Furling and unfurling takes some experience. I had the 'counter rolled sail' situation more than once, but have always been able to resolve the situation quickly. No light winds sail solution is without it's downsides, but the positives far outweight for me.

[Fbfisher]

Originally Posted by jt11791

Do you need to do that? Why attach to the furled jib? Try just tacking it to the anchor roller.

It is tacked with a downhaul that runs through a block that is snap shackled to the open anchor roller, and it lead back through deck mounted fair leads to a clutch on the coach roof next to the companionway.

The beads (there are other methods I’ve seen) attached to the furled genny keep the tack from moving outboard, making trimming luff of the sail easier? I don’t know if this is necessary but many I’ve seen have them.

I’m meeting with a rigger today to discuss options.

[Fbfisher]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Don't most people blow the sheet?

Blow the sheet? Blow the tack? Create a wind shadow with the main is the method I’ve used. Less drama as no flailing sail and sheets, dousing it into the forward stateroom definitely gets it off the deck quickly, though doing so means I’m on deck to drop the sock and drop the halyard, which is actually released from the cockpit.

[Fbfisher]

Originally Posted by ilCigno

...I installed the furler to be able to use the gennaker solo sailing....No light winds sail solution is without it's downsides, but the positives far outweight for me.

Exactly my objective. How much pressure do you allow in the sheet when furling? Do you let the sheet go and let the sail flail in the wind while furling, or...? I’ve seen both strategies mentioned here.

[jacktheflyer]

Originally Posted by Islander53

Top down furlers are amazing until there not.

I have a harken reflex furler on a 53' boat with a very big spinnaker . When working properly it was easy to single hand the spinnaker. I used it about 5 times , until one day I needed to roll the spinnaker up in a hurry when the wind picked up. I accidentally rolled the spinnaker up while the sheet was still kind of tight. The spinnaker somehow back wrapped it's self . Long story short . 5 months later I still have a spinnaker which is rolled up in such a way it cannot be un rolled . It will un furl a small amount then the sail is rolled the opposite direction and begins to tighten. I have 20+ all day attempts on and off the boat trying to unfurl the sail. I've had people a lot smarter than me try to solve the puzzle with no luck

So now I have a $5k furler with a $5k sail that I will most likely end up cutting off the furler

I've just installed the same and have this issue at the top. Can still use the sail but it won't unfurl completely. And I don't know what caused it.

[jt11791]

Originally Posted by Fbfisher

It is tacked with a downhaul that runs through a block that is snap shackled to the open anchor roller, and it lead back through deck mounted fair leads to a clutch on the coach roof next to the companionway.

The beads (there are other methods I’ve seen) attached to the furled genny keep the tack from moving outboard, making trimming luff of the sail easier? I don’t know if this is necessary but many I’ve seen have them.

I’m meeting with a rigger today to discuss options.

I've never found attachment to the furled head sail helpful or necessary. Attach the tack line to the bow and keep it pulled down fairly tight. You can ease the tack a bit when running deep to help the sail rotate more in front of the boat.