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Old 10-02-2021, 06:13   #1
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To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

Hello one and all!

The time has come for us to ask the community's advice.
We have gone through some other threads and yes, we have watched Expedition Evans!

So, we fell in love with a boat. I know, it's bad. Let's say she is as close to perfection as it could get minus an accident. We have seen many boats, too.

What we were told was that she hit a rock above the waterline on the bow and had some water seeping in through the keel bolt holes after that. The bow was repaired and the keel was dropped, hull re-glassed (rebuild with 3 layers of epoxy using Panos Yacht Pain) and resealed.
The repair does not have any receipts but was done by local professionals in Preveza area (overseen by Horatio C. Todd and keel reseal executed by Ron and Tony Tuck in Paleros) We have the pictures of it too.

It does not sound like she has been in the water since the repair in 2018 (covid and time constraints). When we visited, we did not see any signs of delamination - the bilges look spotless.

Now, grid movement is very hard to detect which is why this is a huge gamble for us. She is a very lovely Dufour from 2006. We could possibly get a good deal on her but the lack of receipts and a history like this will always make it difficult for us to resell her later...however, could be worth it as we could get her for a better price.

What we are currently wondering if it is even worth it for us to go through a survey or say goodbye now. What if there is a problem later on - what should we budget for something like this? Or are we making a big deal of it and the repair looks great?
How could we establish if the grid moved without waiting for after we get her and sail her around for a few months/years? Of course we would get her surveyed but a surveyor is also not god.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts!!!
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Old 10-02-2021, 06:20   #2
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

Some more pictures of the keel repair.
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Old 10-02-2021, 07:58   #3
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

boats are like lovers and buses
when you miss one there is another coming
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Old 10-02-2021, 08:19   #4
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

The boat is on the hard so hire a surveyor and tell him your concerns about the grounding and repair. Specifically mention you are wondering about the grid being debonded from the hull. Put it in writing by making a checklist of everything you want specific information on.

Verify that the survey report discusses all of those items as well as anything else that was inspected. If the report misses something, get a written addendum to the survey report that includes the missed item(s).

A professional should have no problems with any of that.

From there; the pics you included look good to my eyes and I can't see any debonding of the grid away from the hull. The bilge paint in the "during repairs" images doesn't look cracked and there are no gaps between the grid and the hull. If the surveyor believes she's sound, then she probably is.

If it turns out that she isn't, well that's why the survey is so detailed and why the surveyor has insurance.
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Old 10-02-2021, 08:45   #5
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

They told you the bow hit something above the waterline and because of that they removed the keel? There are no receipts? The bilge looks spotless, with no delamination of the grid? Sounds GREAT! Sounds WONDERFUL! Sounds like they could have slapped caulk into any cracks and painted over them. Unlike the Evans', you don't know exactly what was damaged (their story has obvious holes in it - pun intended) and since you didn't fix it yourself, as the Evans' did, you don't know if it was actually fixed properly. The best yard in the world can fix a crack, but if the owner tells them to only fill it with caulk and paint over it, they will do a really good job of just that. It will look great, but may not hold up for a week after the boat is relaunched. You don't know. And there's a lot you don't know about this boat. With a problem as extensive as this "bow hitting something above the waterline", you would be taking a risk every time you went out in this boat - trusting the seller's word that the boat is safe. If it isn't, whose fault is it if YOU decide to buy it? The surveyor is insured, as suggested, but essentially the situation is 'caveat emptor'. If the boat sinks and people die, suing those responsible won't revive anyone, will take forever, will cost a lot, and you'll have lost the boat too. There are other 2006 Dufours out there that a haven't hit things hard enough to require removing the keel and (maybe?) rebonding the hull grid, and re-attaching the keel. Those might be the smarter ones to buy. This one has too many unknowns.
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Old 10-02-2021, 09:24   #6
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viss View Post
...............So, we fell in love with a boat. I know, it's bad. Let's say she is as close to perfection as it could get minus an accident..............What we are currently wondering if it is even worth it for us to go through a survey or say goodbye now. What if there is a problem later on - what should we budget for something like this? Or are we making a big deal of it and the repair looks great?
If the boat checks all your boxes, price is right and you are satisfied with one OR two independent marine hull surveys then go for it!!
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Old 10-02-2021, 09:36   #7
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

In addition to the suggestions above, are you able to talk to those who did the repair? Are you able to visit the boat and talk in person with those involved?

I would also ask what the cost of the repairs were. Is the price you can negotiate enough of a discount that you can afford to make additional repairs if you need to?

I think it is worth continuing to investigate the boat. If the discount is enough, and the survey yields a satisfactory result, and of course if you are comfortable with the answers you receive, then an offer should be made.


Good luck with your research!
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Old 10-02-2021, 09:43   #8
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viss View Post
Hello one and all!

The time has come for us to ask the community's advice.
We have gone through some other threads and yes, we have watched Expedition Evans!

So, we fell in love with a boat. I know, it's bad. Let's say she is as close to perfection as it could get minus an accident. We have seen many boats, too.

What we were told was that she hit a rock above the waterline on the bow and had some water seeping in through the keel bolt holes after that. The bow was repaired and the keel was dropped, hull re-glassed (rebuild with 3 layers of epoxy using Panos Yacht Pain) and resealed.
The repair does not have any receipts but was done by local professionals in Preveza area (overseen by Horatio C. Todd and keel reseal executed by Ron and Tony Tuck in Paleros) We have the pictures of it too.

It does not sound like she has been in the water since the repair in 2018 (covid and time constraints). When we visited, we did not see any signs of delamination - the bilges look spotless.

Now, grid movement is very hard to detect which is why this is a huge gamble for us. She is a very lovely Dufour from 2006. We could possibly get a good deal on her but the lack of receipts and a history like this will always make it difficult for us to resell her later...however, could be worth it as we could get her for a better price.

What we are currently wondering if it is even worth it for us to go through a survey or say goodbye now. What if there is a problem later on - what should we budget for something like this? Or are we making a big deal of it and the repair looks great?
How could we establish if the grid moved without waiting for after we get her and sail her around for a few months/years? Of course we would get her surveyed but a surveyor is also not god.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts!!!
It is hard to reason with someone in LOVE!

If you are satisfied with her looks, OK with her pedigree, knowledgeable of her body and its history, and accept the baggage she carries coming into your relationship then marry her with the understanding that you walk into this arrangement with your eyes and wallet wide open.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH
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Old 10-02-2021, 09:58   #9
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

Why do folk do this to themselves???? There are loads and loads of boats available to purchase that have not been wrecked had substantial damage done to them....

Fair winds,
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Old 10-02-2021, 10:02   #10
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJH View Post
It is hard to reason with someone in LOVE!

If you are satisfied with her looks, OK with her pedigree, knowledgeable of her body and its history, and accept the baggage she carries coming into your relationship then marry her with the understanding that you walk into this arrangement with your eyes and wallet wide open.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH
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Old 10-02-2021, 10:24   #11
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viss View Post
...............but the lack of receipts and a history like this will always make it difficult for us to resell her later.......What if there is a problem later on - what should we budget for something like this?
As long as you complete the survey items it should be difficult to resell later. unless the boat abstract shows it as "salvaged". Was that the case? After you obtain a marine survey submit it to your marine insurance company and sign their "Compliance Certification" that confirms ALL the survey recommendations have been OR will be completed by a speciifc date since without that the insurer will not cover any costs associated with unrepaired survey recommendations. I maintain a survey recommendation completion list by who and when completed (ususally completed within 30 days after obtaining an insurance binder at the same time as the boat sale is finalized) that I can provide to the insurer AND/OR future buyer, if requested.

As far as a budget............would not expect any IF all the repairs were properly completed.
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Old 10-02-2021, 10:33   #12
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY View Post
In addition to the suggestions above, are you able to talk to those who did the repair? Are you able to visit the boat and talk in person with those involved?

I would also ask what the cost of the repairs were. Is the price you can negotiate enough of a discount that you can afford to make additional repairs if you need to?

I think it is worth continuing to investigate the boat. If the discount is enough, and the survey yields a satisfactory result, and of course if you are comfortable with the answers you receive, then an offer should be made.


Good luck with your research!
A really good suggestion! He is retired but I will try my best to reach him.
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Old 10-02-2021, 10:38   #13
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJH View Post
It is hard to reason with someone in LOVE!

If you are satisfied with her looks, OK with her pedigree, knowledgeable of her body and its history, and accept the baggage she carries coming into your relationship then marry her with the understanding that you walk into this arrangement with your eyes and wallet wide open.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH
Hahahaha Best answer yet.
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Old 10-02-2021, 11:01   #14
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

Hi. This forum wont give you a definitive answer – you will get a range of opinions right across the spectrum & in the end you will have to choose which answers you like. However, many people here (not all maybe) are very experienced & their opinions & information are very worthwhile.

You have maybe heard the expression AWB – stands for Average White Boat. Most modern boats are AWBs – what is so very special about this particular one??

Buying a damaged boat (or house) you have fallen in love with is fine (I’ve done both in the past) just as long as you know exactly what you are getting into beforehand, have a strong, resilient character, are feeling brave, have deep pockets to right the wrongs, are planning to keep the boat (or house) for long enough to make it worthwhile, & accept that you will have extra questions to resolve when it comes time to sell on & may well end up out of pocket. After all, money is only money (as long as you have enough of it). Love is far more important, isn’t it?

I have repaired major damage to my boat in the distant past (severe deep seated osmosis). I bought the boat for a third off the going price, found the best surveyor & yard I could, had the repair done under continual surveyor supervision to his detailed written specification with regular interim reports, & kept all the receipts. I am satisfied the boat is stronger than when originally built. This will all be fully disclosed to any buyer when I eventually come to sell but no doubt there will still be reservations.

Doesn’t sound like your seller did all of that. No receipts?? Puh-lease… Pull the other one, do.

Please note – hitting a rock above the waterline cannot possibly in any way cause water to seep in through the keel. Absolutely not. What happened is that the skipper neglected his pilotage & allowed the boat to hit a VISIBLE rock (showing above waterline) with both the keel & the bow. Which bit of the boat hit first to absorb the shock? How fast was he going at the time? You don’t know & he’s not saying.

The boat hasn’t been in the water since the accident. Covid started in 2020. Time constraints – bu*****t.

You could possibly get a good deal on her ?? You mean he is asking full price?

Walk away. Not because of the boat but because of the seller. You are plainly not dealing with an entirely honest man.

Ask yourself- do you want to buy his problem? Lots of other AWBs out there.
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Old 10-02-2021, 11:04   #15
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Re: To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by psk125 View Post
They told you the bow hit something above the waterline and because of that they removed the keel? There are no receipts? The bilge looks spotless, with no delamination of the grid? Sounds GREAT! Sounds WONDERFUL! Sounds like they could have slapped caulk into any cracks and painted over them. Unlike the Evans', you don't know exactly what was damaged (their story has obvious holes in it - pun intended) and since you didn't fix it yourself, as the Evans' did, you don't know if it was actually fixed properly. The best yard in the world can fix a crack, but if the owner tells them to only fill it with caulk and paint over it, they will do a really good job of just that. It will look great, but may not hold up for a week after the boat is relaunched. You don't know. And there's a lot you don't know about this boat. With a problem as extensive as this "bow hitting something above the waterline", you would be taking a risk every time you went out in this boat - trusting the seller's word that the boat is safe. If it isn't, whose fault is it if YOU decide to buy it? The surveyor is insured, as suggested, but essentially the situation is 'caveat emptor'. If the boat sinks and people die, suing those responsible won't revive anyone, will take forever, will cost a lot, and you'll have lost the boat too. There are other 2006 Dufours out there that a haven't hit things hard enough to require removing the keel and (maybe?) rebonding the hull grid, and re-attaching the keel. Those might be the smarter ones to buy. This one has too many unknowns.
Yep, my thoughts exactly - how hard do you have to hit something to knock the keel loose? Something here is not adding up. I think I'd also be concerned about things like the bulkhead tabbing and any stingers that could have been compromised. Are the chain plates still secure and how's the mast stepping - the list goes on and on and none of it is cheap to fix. Pay a bit more for one that hasn't been involved in a collision.
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