To buy or not to buy a boat with a history of damage?

[psp2psp2]

Originally Posted by Viss

Hello one and all!

The time has come for us to ask the community's advice.
We have gone through some other threads and yes, we have watched Expedition Evans!

So, we fell in love with a boat. I know, it's bad. Let's say she is as close to perfection as it could get minus an accident. We have seen many boats, too.

What we were told was that she hit a rock above the waterline on the bow and had some water seeping in through the keel bolt holes after that. The bow was repaired and the keel was dropped, hull re-glassed (rebuild with 3 layers of epoxy using Panos Yacht Pain) and resealed.
The repair does not have any receipts but was done by local professionals in Preveza area (overseen by Horatio C. Todd and keel reseal executed by Ron and Tony Tuck in Paleros) We have the pictures of it too.

It does not sound like she has been in the water since the repair in 2018 (covid and time constraints). When we visited, we did not see any signs of delamination - the bilges look spotless.

Now, grid movement is very hard to detect which is why this is a huge gamble for us. She is a very lovely Dufour from 2006. We could possibly get a good deal on her but the lack of receipts and a history like this will always make it difficult for us to resell her later...however, could be worth it as we could get her for a better price.

What we are currently wondering if it is even worth it for us to go through a survey or say goodbye now. What if there is a problem later on - what should we budget for something like this? Or are we making a big deal of it and the repair looks great?
How could we establish if the grid moved without waiting for after we get her and sail her around for a few months/years? Of course we would get her surveyed but a surveyor is also not god.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts!!!

Not worth the risk. Carry on looking.

myageofsail.com

[Viss]

We were expecting the whole spectrum of answers and we were not disappointed!

Thank you all for your input, it gave us some great solutions and ideas.

We saw many boats and not only we were too tall for all of them, we also didn't fall in love. It was different with this one. And the reason why we are doing this is because we otherwise would not be able to afford this particular boat.

No receipts is, sadly, the way they do everything in Greece. We are thankful that the owner did not hide the repairs (as many have mentioned in other forums, this is probably rare) so we can pay attention to the right bits when doing a survey.

We have put in an offer! Fingers crossed!

[Clivevon]

Oh well. Good luck anyway.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Congratulations, and good luck! If you have the time, please post an update on this thread and let us know how things turned out. Again, I wish you success with your survey, and hopefully purchase,


Fair winds!


Dave

[zstine]

My perspective is (I didn't read all the posts so this could be a repeat):
1) When you sell this down the road, there is no obligation to disclose that the boat was damaged and repaired. If you sail her for years and have no issues with the repairs, then why chase off sellers by telling them there was a problem years ago that's now fixed?
2) As with Even's, It looks like the sump box ripped off the hull when they dropped the keel. This probably was not damaged in the grounding.
3) Someone is not being up front about the repair or doesn't know what they are talking about! That repair is chop strand mat and is not compatible with epoxy... at least not here in the USA. So I highly doubt the repair was done with epoxy (maybe Vinylester not real "epoxy"). Or if it was epoxy, I would seriously question what chop strand mat they used as the typical binder in chop strand will not dissolve with epoxy so it won't wet-out properly. Also, Chop strand mat is not great for carrying high loads. In other words, not the best material for a repair next to keel bolts... And 3 layers isn't that much, but I don't know what they used.
4) If the grid was separated, you would be able to see a crack in the tabbing between the hull and grid. Unlike Evan's Beneteau which 'glues' the grid in, This boat appears to have proper tabbing, which is much stronger. I don't see signs of separation in you pic, but it's a pic...
EDIT - I didn't realize you are in Greece. I have heard that there is Chop Strand Mat available in EU that is compatible with epoxy, though it is rare. I'm still skeptical about the use of epoxy and I'd guess it was Vinylester... not that there's anything wrong with that if they used proper prep, like tapering enough, etc.

[billgewater]

Originally Posted by davil

boats are like lovers and buses
when you miss one there is another coming

Not really. A bus will take you from A to B. A lover will take you to the cleaners.

[davil]

well just trying to be helpful,can we settle on the bus then? 50/50?
cheers

[sa1l1ng33k]

It really depends on your agenda. If you have time, get one with more problems. That way it's easier to find out what is wrong with the boat. You can also get to bond with the boat a little more

[Manateeman]

You buy the boat, sail it and everything is fine. You sell the boat with full disclosure of the damage and repair. The buyer is happy. One day the buyer and the boat both sink to the bottom one mile down. The buyer has a wife or family that includes someone certified in Admirality law and brings a civil case .
They say horrible untrue things. Someone on the jury thinks you remind him of someone who cheated them and turns everybody against you.
Feel like rolling the dice?
Think this does not happen in real life. My dad was an Admirality attorney.
Juries are loaded dice. Sometimes you get sevens, sometimes snake eyes.
Think your insurance company will not ask for a settlement .
Think justice is perfect and some paper signed by a dead guy will save you?
My dog doesn’t bite. The dog that bit you was not my dog. Rover is not a dog just a wolf. So you want to buy a wolf because it’s got clean teeth?
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his “we never sleep under fin keels” manatees

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

You buy the boat, sail it and everything is fine. You sell the boat with full disclosure of the damage and repair. The buyer is happy. One day the buyer and the boat both sink to the bottom one mile down. The buyer has a wife or family that includes someone certified in Admirality law and brings a civil case .
They say horrible untrue things. Someone on the jury thinks you remind him of someone who cheated them and turns everybody against you.
Feel like rolling the dice?
Think this does not happen in real life. My dad was an Admirality attorney.
Juries are loaded dice. Sometimes you get sevens, sometimes snake eyes.
Think your insurance company will not ask for a settlement .
Think justice is perfect and some paper signed by a dead guy will save you?
My dog doesn’t bite. The dog that bit you was not my dog. Rover is not a dog just a wolf. So you want to buy a wolf because it’s got clean teeth?
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his “we never sleep under fin keels” manatees

Captain Mark and his manatees makes a good point. I have seen some crazy lawsuits and in today's world, especially here in the U.S, it is a real concern.

Having said that, someone can sue you for anything. People and companies often include a "I will not sue you" clause, yet sometimes people still sue and occasionally win. On the other hand, if you sell anything, even a boat without damage, they can still sue you. If you have a "soft" grounding, or if your keel bolts go bad unknown to you, you can be sued. If you take a friend out and they hurt themselves, you can be sued. IF you gave a boat away at no charge and said the boat is only for parts, you could still be sued.

I think all you can do is take reasonable precautions and enjoy yourself. If you do a good job on the repair, document it, and are honest, there is not much more you can do. Is it really any different if you sold a boat with no damage but it was just old, and needs new rigging? Is it any different if you sell a never damaged boat with a high hours engine, and the new buyer runs aground because the engine finally died?

[George_SD]

Have you checked with any insurance company if they will actually insure it?

If there is anything in the survey about significant damage - they may not offer a policy.

It may also hold a salvage title or be written off by previous insurer, which can be a problem.

Not saying you shouldn’t do it if it’s a good repair and the price is right , but beware of insurance issues

[Viss]

Update:

Just finished the survey and it is not good news.

There are several stress fractures in the forward cabin and one in the salon. Considering that she has not been sailing much after the initial repairs - it can only mean that the whole grid has been detached (otherwise these visible fractures would have been repaired along with the other area). Tap testing also confirmed the findings.

Really gutted.

We are leaning towards looking for another boat but we are also considering doing the work if the owner comes further down in price... as I said, we really love her and there is something to be said about repairing rather than discarding. Between Covid, our height and budget restrictions and because we want to be sailing as soon as possible we are still considering her. It will all depend on what the owner says and the price tag from the bonding repair specialists.

A sad day.

[Clivevon]

What about the damage you havent found yet? Sounds like you are going to buy this boat come hell or high water. Ask yourself if you would be still here if you knew upfront what you know now .

Google the term “sunk cost” & think about it for a minute.

[Searles]

Those keel bolt backing plates look too small and too thin to me ,maybe just the pictures ,maybe a warnings.⚓️⛵️

[Viss]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

What about the damage you havent found yet? Sounds like you are going to buy this boat come hell or high water. Ask yourself if you would be still here if you knew upfront what you know now .

Google the term “sunk cost” & think about it for a minute.

That is a very good point you make and we have been pondering the same question: what is yet to come? We are not too worried about the sunk costs as, in the end, the money spent saved us from getting into something that would have cost even more.

We have withdrawn from the sale completely and are looking at other options.