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Old 30-12-2024, 22:01   #1
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Tiller to Wheel steering conversion

we are in the process of purchasing a 35' Monohull Yacht
we love pretty much everything about the boat except the tiller steering
so we are investigating the possibility of converting this to Helm wheel steering. Having done some reading about the pros and cons of tiller vs wheel
the one thing i was hoping to get a little feedback on is that of wheel size.
in particular the benefits of a bigger wheel and the higher torque they can generate. we have been involved with 7-9m runabouts for a number of years and these generally use a hydraulic steering system with a smaller wheel (i do like the look of the larger wheel and i am aware of the folding wheels) i cant see any reason why a hydraulic system that is designed to move a large 300hp outboard engine couldn't be adapted to control a rudder with a smaller helm steering wheel. However when you are researching these things you dont know what you dont know so there may be a good reason why you cant/ shouldnt do this, advice and wisdom appreciated
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Old 31-12-2024, 09:51   #2
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Re: tiller to Helm steering conversion

I see that this is your first post under the name carbine marine, and I read between the lines that the boat you are contemplating buying is for your own family's use. I also read between the lines that you have some, perhaps considerable, experience with high powered motor boats.

If those surmises are correct, I compliment you for having the wisdom to ask the question you are asking, because it establishes for members of CF a benchmark for your present knowledge of the nature of cruising sailboats. You would be wise to accept unconditionally that the handling of sailboats is NOTHING like the handling of motor boats. Monohull sailboats are, categorically, a different breed of cat from every kind of motor boat most particularly from power catamarans!

You may therefore have to learn about boat handling “from the keel up”, and that may well require that you re-evaluate some opinions you seem to hold, specifically your apparent opinion of the forces at play in a well-found cruising sailboat so that you may make your life aboard that boat, and that of you family, as pleasant and as trouble free as possible.

Item: A 35-foot cruising boat (say a ten-tonner) is a SMALL boat and does NOT require wheel steering let alone hydraulicly assisted steering.

Item: When a 35-footer is CORRECTLY canvassed and correctly trimmed, it should be able, when on a close reach, to be steered just by trimming the jib sheet. The motion of the rudder should NOT be impeded by unnecessary mechanical complications. The rudder should simply "trail" behind the boat with no particular attention to the tiller. When a boat is correctly trimmed on a close reach the rudder makes no contribution to the steering of it, and therefore there is no need for someone to be “on the helm” every moment.

Item: "Helm" is a seafaring man's nebulous reference to the totality of the steering gear, not to some particular constituent part of it. What the helmsman uses to helm the ship is either a "tiller" or a "wheel".

Item: Wheels are to be eschewed, particularly in small boats, and they have no justification at all until the forces required to turn the rudder to a desired deflection become so large that no man (or woman) aboard has the strength to do it using a plain tiller. Wheels evolved as the cargo ships of yore grew so large and powerful that a well-grown seaman could not control them using a either the plain tiller, or the special kind of tiller called a "whip staff".

Item: in a SMALL SAILBOAT (motor boats are a different case entirely) you do NOT want to sacrifice valuable living space in the cockpit to something so unnecessary as a wheel on a pedestal. A cruising boat is in no way to be likened to a "motorhome" nor indeed to, say, a fifty foot power catamaran.

My best advice to you is therefore to leave the tiller if that is what the boat you buy has. Forget what you think you know about boathandling, and learn to use the tiller correctly. That, of course, presupposes that you learn to trim your canvas correctly :-)

You will find that becoming a competent sailboat skipper yields pleasure far beyond what can be given by a motor boat.

All the best to you :-)!

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Old 31-12-2024, 10:16   #3
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Re: tiller to Helm steering conversion

Everything that TrentePieds said above, and an additional point.

The large steering wheels seen on most sailboats are NOT there for generating torque. They are there to give the helmsman flexibility in position. Sitting, standing, port side, starboard side, you need to be able to keep a hand on the wheel as favored position changes with heel and sea conditions. This is why a usefully sized steering wheel is such an intrusion in a small cockpit, it simply needs to take up a lot of space.

Honestly, the reason wheels are installed on small sailboats instead of tillers is so the owner can pretend he is driving a big boat.
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Old 31-12-2024, 10:23   #4
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Re: tiller to Helm steering conversion

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie View Post
Honestly, the reason wheels are installed on small sailboats instead of tillers is so the owner can pretend he is driving a big boat.
it's true.
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Old 31-12-2024, 10:32   #5
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Re: tiller to Helm steering conversion

You say that you've found the boat you want to purchase - so I'll assume that it's construction (e.g., how the rudder is mounted) allows conversion from tiller to wheel. You say that you've looked into the pros and cons of wheel vs. tiller - and you've decided that you'd like a wheel, so I won't question your decision. You simply ask for advice regarding the size of the wheel - so I'll stick to that.

As Trentepieds correctly points out in his first Note - a 35' monohull sailboat doesn't (usually) require a lot of effort to turn the wheel. And as SailingHarmonie says - the size of the wheel should be determined by the comfort/practicality of steering the boat. Is the wheel 'reachable' from the various places from which you'll be steering? Does the pedestal (if a pedestal is what you'll be using) interfere with life in the cockpit? Can you move around in, and exit the cockpit easily?

Again, as Trentepieds advises - don't think of steering a sailboat in the same terms as steering a motorboat - especially an outboard. The torque required to turn a spinning prop is quite different from the torque required to turn the rudder in a monohull sailboat.

I think that the reason wheels are used on smaller boats is because many (if not most) owners of small boats first learned to steer things (e.g., cars, tractors, go-carts, riding lawn mowers, etc.) by using a wheel. They're used to going right by turning a wheel to the right - and going left by turning a wheel to the left. A tiller seems 'backwards' to those folks - and it takes some getting used to. Steering a boat with a wheel is familiar.

So - my advice is to use whatever steering mechanism you feel comfortable using - and size it so that it 'fits' in the space you're given.
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Old 31-12-2024, 11:15   #6
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Re: tiller to Helm steering conversion

I would never convert from tiller to wheel. Unless I were some kind of cripple and could not use the tiller.


But I would convert any boat from wheel to tiller - as far as this is doable given the boat's layout and design.


When you think of it, there are two frequent reasons why (small <40ft) boats may have wheels :


- the design is *ucked up - the rudder is too hard to operate,
- marketing (buyers want wheels).


For boats bigger than about 40 feet, where the rudder is not balanced / semi-balanced, there is often no other option - a non balanced rudder on a big boat is just enough force to tire a strong helmsman during a regular 4 hours trick.


So, a wheel YES - but not to cover up the boat's poor design, or to decorate things in search for (an ignorant) buyer's money !


b.
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Old 31-12-2024, 11:35   #7
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Re: tiller to Helm steering conversion

I prefer tillers too, but my buddy has a 30 footer with a wheel and it works fine, but the boat was designed with a wheel in mind. The thing to check is that there will be a fitting called a quadrant that will be mounted on the rudder post under the cockpit floor. Cables running from the wheel go down under the cockpit floor to blocks that run to other blocks and then to the quadrant that actually turns the rudder left and right. For a 35' boat, hydraulic steering is an unnecessary complication. As Treinte has mentioned, there just is not that much force needed for a rudder on a 35 foot sailboat. So, what you must be sure of is, is there room for the cables, blocks and quadrant AND will you be able to access it to maintain it? In my buddy's boat it is a real PITA to crawl down to get at the quadrant.

I met a guy once who had his boat on the hard who had just come down the California coast. He thought the steering (wheel steering) on his Catalina 34 was a bit rough and stiff. When he finally crawled down in there he saw he was down to 2 strands left on his steering cables. The cables weren't aligned properly onto the quadrant and it had chewed the cable up. Losing your steering in a sailboat is one of the more dangerous things, so the simplicity and reliability of tiller steering is why you'll hear sailors hesitate at wheel steering sometimes.

Once the wheel and pedestal are in, you'll need to be sure you have access for an emergency tiller to be attached to the rudder post.

As to the size of the wheel, IMO it has to be large enough so that you can hold the wheel and be able to lean out far enough to see if the sails are trimmed correctly.
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Old 31-12-2024, 11:46   #8
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Re: tiller to Helm steering conversion

I regularly sail my O'Day 30 with a tiller, and a 30' Catalina with a wheel.

I STRONGLY prefer the tiller.

I occasionally sail or J35/J26's, some with tiller, some with a wheel. Even on these larger, MUCH more powerful boats, I prefer the tiller.

I'd say to use the tiller for a season or two before thinking about changing to a wheel.
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Old 31-12-2024, 11:47   #9
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Re: tiller to Helm steering conversion

I prefer a wheel but I've yet to meet a tiller converted to wheel that worked well. I've been asked to assist with a few boats that were converted to wheel and they all were unacceptable to me. Way too much steering effort because there's no room for a large steering quadrant required by a wheel. Cockpits are wrong shape, no tee so no room for a large wheel reducing torque available. You need to replace the torque available with a long lever (the tiller) with a large steering quadrant and wheel. That is rarely possible.
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Old 31-12-2024, 12:34   #10
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Re: tiller to Helm steering conversion

Carbinemarine - I think it would be good for you to tell us what kind of boat has caught your fancy and what kind of sailing you expect to do.

Talk of pedestals, quadrants, cables, etc., may be important - but it may be moot if you don't intend to use pedestal steering. My old Rhodes 40 had wheel steering, but with a worm gear steering system - not a pedestal. That system comes with its own set of concerns.

Tiller steering is great for day-sailing, but it can be a bit of a problem if you intend to sail for extended periods (this is, after all, the Cruisers Forum). A notable challenge is rigging autopilots on tillers. I know it is done - but it is not as straightforward as rigging an autopilot on a pedestal steering system. Certainly - Sam Holmes sails his Cape Dory 28 all around the world with a tiller - but he has had his fair share of problems with his various autopilots (see, for instance - look at 9:30 - 10:30). Rigging autopilots on worm gear or forward rack systems would be its own discussion thread.

So - if you want advice on converting your boat (beyond the size of a wheel) - and information about what we would or would not do - it would probably be best to give us more of a window into your plans and thinking.
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Old 31-12-2024, 15:20   #11
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Re: tiller to Helm steering conversion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
....... Losing your steering in a sailboat is one of the more dangerous things, so the simplicity and reliability of tiller steering is why you'll hear sailors hesitate at wheel steering sometimes.

Once the wheel and pedestal are in, you'll need to be sure you have access for an emergency tiller to be attached to the rudder post.
........
Exactly Don!
This needs repeating.

A tiller arrangement is usually strong and simple, a wheel arrangement not so much. Even a well designed wheel system should have provision for fitting an emergency tiller.

I have had both over the years and I have had wheel system fail but never had a tiller system fail.
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Old 31-12-2024, 15:39   #12
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Re: tiller to Helm steering conversion

To the OP, I'm struggling to find a helpful and concise way to explain what you don't know. There is too much. You need to read a lot more about the various types of wheel steering systems available for sailboats, all the components that go into them, rudder design, sail trim and balance, hull shape, etc. For steering systems specifically start with cable, hydraulic and worm gear (although there are others).
The diameter of the wheel at the helm is only one variable in any system, and can be sized up or down depending on various factors and needs. It is not the key variable in determining how easy or hard it is to steer the boat. If you WANT a big wheel, then the other components of the system need to be sized accordingly to give the required utility at the helm, including the effort needed to steer, the ability to reach from different helm positions, and even how many rotations from amidships to full rudder deflection.
Also, there is more to converting a sailboat from tiller to wheel than just modifying the steering. Things like access to winches, operation of the main sheet, (re)location of throttle and gear controls, and many others that have already been mentioned. After you take these into consideration you may find that the boat you are enamoured with actually is better off with a tiller.
For the record, I own a boat that was converted from tiller to wheel before I bought it. I constantly think about switching back. It's just a lot of work so I live with it. If I were in your, um, boat I would look for something that already has a wheel or else sail your pick with the tiller for quite some time before deciding to make the conversion.
Finally, as others have mentioned, if you disclose what boat you are looking at you may get much more helpful answers. So much knowledge here; maybe someone has already done it, or undone it, to that particular boat and can really help answer your questions.
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Old 31-12-2024, 15:47   #13
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Re: tiller to Helm steering conversion

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Exactly Don!
This needs repeating.

A tiller arrangement is usually strong and simple, a wheel arrangement not so much. Even a well designed wheel system should have provision for fitting an emergency tiller.

I have had both over the years and I have had wheel system fail but never had a tiller system fail.
Welcome aboard CF.

Interesting point, Wottie. We have had both, also, and never had a steering failure (so far.)

But I did want to say that with hydraulic steering, you lose the "feel" that tells you what the boat's about to do, so you would be handicapped by adding that. It is easy to learn to steer with either, but using the tiller makes you more able to do it well. With sailboats, one rarely motors straight upwind. One finds a compatible-with-ultimate-destination course that will involve one or more tacks, and then harmonizes the sails, plus wind, and with current considerations as well, to go where one wants. It is the feeling of being in harmony with the elements, that is one of the big gratifications of sailing.

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Old 31-12-2024, 17:06   #14
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Re: Tiller to Wheel steering conversion

You indicate you intend to buy a yacht and you have a background in motor boats implying you intend to buy a sailboat.

Wheel vs tiller

A wheel is easier for newbies to use, most people know how to drive a can and a wheel is comfortable and easy to understand in a new operating environment. This is why many/most new boats have wheels, the marginal cost of installing one is small compared to total purchase price and it makes the boats more attractive to buyers during the purchase process.

They are common in the charter market because a lot of low experience charterers cycle thru regularly.

For a boat with a regular crew within a modest amount of time (1-3 month regular use) a tiller because just as easy to use.

Wheels offer additional mechanical advantage on very large boats or smaller boats that have a helm imbalance problem.
Tillers are easier to maintain, there is less to go wrong mechanically.
Tillers don't have a packing gland below the waterline that can leak into the boat if it fails.
Tiller are arguably easier to set up an autopilot on.
Underway a wheel leaves more social room at the front of the cockpit.
At anchor (90ish% of the time) a tiller can be tilted up completely freeing cockpit room for movement and social uses.
At anchor a wheel that is not removed is an impediment to moving to the stern.
While a wheel binnacle provides a place to mount electronic instruments, a better place would be up under to dodger more protected from sun and spray and green water. Yes, a lot manufacturers put instruments on the binnacle of new boats, it's what inexperienced buyers want and expect. It's what some experienced sailors want too.
It is very straight forward to

Wheels
Most wheel systems use cables or chains to transmit force from the helm to the rudder head. There is a quadrant attached to the top of the rudder post below the cockpit probably below the waterline.
In well lubricated systems with a minimum number of cable or chain turns between the binnacle and quadrant you can have a pretty good feel for the helm forces. Where there's a lot a friction helm feel can be minimal or non-existent.
With cable or chain wheel systems autopilots can be mounted on the wheel or below decks on the rudder head.
A windvane steering system can be linked to the wheel with slightly more involved than a tiller or it can use a auxiliary rudder of which there are a few systems available.

Hydraulics
When a boat has a center cockpit the path from the wheel to the rudderhead (probably under the berth in the aft cabin) may be too convoluted for chain or cable and a hydraulic system may be required. With hydraulic wheel systems there can be large distances between the helm and the rudderhead.
They will be little if any feel for rudder forces.
An autopilot can be mounted on the rudderhead and probably the wheel too.
Mounting a windvane self-steering system requires windvanes that have auxiliary rudders or links to the rudderhead below deck by some means. Linking a windvane to the wheel is ineffective because the hydraulic system bleeds a little so over time meaning a hard link between windvane and wheel will slowly move one way or the other until it's hard over even though there is little rudder deflection.
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Old 06-01-2025, 07:53   #15
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Re: Tiller to Wheel steering conversion

Edson Marine may have a data sheet on the boat.


https://edsonmarine.com/sailboat-steering-data-sheets/




Interestingly enough , the data sheet for my boat lists a smaller diameter wheel than the one that is actually installed on the boat.


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