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25-05-2014, 16:52
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#76
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,108
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
[QUOTE=IdoraKeeper;1549752]
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61
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And ferro!!!!
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25-05-2014, 16:57
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#77
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Seaman, Delivery skipper


Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 28,697
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
[QUOTE=IdoraKeeper;1549752]
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61
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Opppssss.... Sorry..
Strip planked bilge keeler.. the Tiki 21 was ply and glass.. done 3 old ply boat deliveries.. the last was a 40yr old fin from Perth to Tasmania across the Bight..
__________________
It was a dark and stormy night and the captain of the ship said.. "Hey Jim, spin us a yarn." and the yarn began like this.. "It was a dark and stormy night.."
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25-05-2014, 17:00
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#78
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Seaman, Delivery skipper


Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 28,697
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
[QUOTE=neilpride;1549753]
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper
And ferro!!!! 
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You got me there... never owned or sailed a ferro... came close.. but a motorbike accident broke my leg and saved me..
__________________
It was a dark and stormy night and the captain of the ship said.. "Hey Jim, spin us a yarn." and the yarn began like this.. "It was a dark and stormy night.."
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25-05-2014, 17:19
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#79
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 19,241
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The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova
No need to make wild guesses. With the keel gone, the boat's windows were, at times, required to do the job previously done by the inverted hull. Wave action directly on the windows would easily be sufficient for them to fail.
One thing to note is that these types of boats with huge windows are not well conceived for survival in storm conditions. Any owner of such a boat would be well advised to properly install removable storm covers before placing his crew's lives at risk.
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40.7. Isn't a pilot house , it has quite small windows by modern standards , it certainly doesn't have " huge" windows.
Perhaps people might understand the model before making generalisations
Dave
Dave
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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25-05-2014, 17:23
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#80
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 19,241
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ
Did you see the thread about "Elusive" being abandoned 350nms off Virginia? Full keeler. Ketch too.
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Forget it mark. The anti awbs brigade arnt interested in real facts or evaluating specific issue. They just want to tar the whole type.
I mean we just discussed a supposed bluewater boat then has a minor broach a d the hull deck joint seeming failed ?
Dave
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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25-05-2014, 17:36
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#81
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Seaman, Delivery skipper


Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 28,697
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
[QUOTE=IdoraKeeper;1549729]
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61
You crack me up....we are seeing too many losses...when you tire of going, or are ordered to by someone you won't refuse, you must submit to teaching. Lives are being lost. Poor decisions made. Folks are not respecting fear when caution is warranted. Of course mother nature will tear off your keel and blow out your ports if she wants to,.....but she rewards respect and diligence. 
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I agree.. to many losses.. but we live/play in a hard world.. no AA, RAC, Auto Club or Tow Boat US...
Folk talk about if the airline industry was like this there'd be hell from air travellers yet the Malaysian plane topped more than the total yachtsmen lost at sea for the last 3yrs +... but folk are still queuing up to fly.. every day 100's of folk are dying on the roads..
Life is risky and things break..
I understand the rectal clench a Cheeki Rafiki incident initiates but hell.. in the scale of things.. how many of the abandonments/sinkings have been the result of a lost keel.. yes it happens but I did not notice this kinda fuss when Bullimore lost his keel..
Come on folks... smell the coffee.. its 'Not Safe' out there..
As far as I'm concerned its an occupational hazard... if you can't take the heat.. get outa the kitchen.
__________________
It was a dark and stormy night and the captain of the ship said.. "Hey Jim, spin us a yarn." and the yarn began like this.. "It was a dark and stormy night.."
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25-05-2014, 17:53
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#82
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 19,241
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
Very few lives are lost in these types of instances. This is quite unusual. I mean we discussed 4 or 5 incidents this last year where all hands were rescued.
I agree with Phil , firstly **** happens, secondly its a place where being conservative and careful pays dividends over recklessness. Also the very uncommon common sense is also very usefully applied
It's also a place where experience playa a huge part.
All in all perhaps many of these factors were missing in this incident
Dave
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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25-05-2014, 18:05
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#83
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Halifax
Posts: 450
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Re: The dTifference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohan
That's a good point, but then the keel must have ripped away pretty violently. I wonder if it is possible that after they experienced problems with their keel, they collided with another vessel or a whale, that ripped off the keel entirely and flexed the boat, shattering the windows. Does that sound plausible?
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That's possible but I think unlikely. There is debris out there and you could lose a keel when colliding with a semi-submerged container or such but it's not that common. It seems to me more probable given the relatively clean hull section where the keel was enjoined, the crews lack of communications, location of the life-raft, and the emergency beacon signals that it was a sudden violent failure they weren't expecting. I suspect if the keel was noticeably loose at any point that would have been communicated ashore immediately. And that is, of course, completely my conjecture.
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25-05-2014, 18:17
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#85
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 19,241
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
Absolutely correct Phil. Anyone who does paid deliveries knows how marginal the situation can get. Often you get asked to undertake a voyage the owner would never attempt.
I remember well the equipment level a standard reliance skipper would find on a typical delivery ( a big round zero )
Liferafts , EPIRBs , flares , haha , to this day I bring my own epirb with me.
Dave
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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25-05-2014, 18:43
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#86
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Mako 248
Posts: 4,089
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
40.7. Isn't a pilot house , it has quite small windows by modern standards , it certainly doesn't have " huge" windows...
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Well, my reference was clearly a generalization, but the online photos show some rather large windows but, you're right, not excessively so. Photo.
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
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25-05-2014, 21:21
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#87
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,543
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
Personally, I don't see the relevance here of whether it's a seasoned delivery crew onboard, or an owner & his family. Nor do I buy the notion that it's simply one of the many risks that sailors must accept, whether they be seasoned delivery captains or new to the sport. I also don't think it matters whether it's a bolted on keel or encapsulated, a Beneteau or an Oyster, a charter boat or private owner vessel, or even a seasoned crew or novices.
For me the point is that, unlike some of the other failures we've seen of late, losing a keel generally means a sudden capsize and thus likely scenario for loss of life. As many of us have read about, witnessed, or experienced ourselves, boats can lose their masts, rigging, rudders, engines, electrical power, electronics, and be suffering water infiltration from faulty hull-to-deck joints and countless other sources. The difference is that most of these scenarios are survivable whereas a sudden capsize often is not.
IMHO, this discussion is akin to trying to excuse an airplane crash due to a wing falling off, or a car body detaching from its chassis & wheels. Maintenance or lack thereof could have been a factor as many point out, but only if the design & construction make such maintenance feasible. Let's face it, it's not as if the technology for properly bolting a keel to a hull hasn't been around for awhile (see, e.g., post #17). The recreational boat building industry has no external stds., and so it comes down to the reputation of each mfg. If cost alone is the deciding factor for ocean going vessels, then seaworthiness may suffer. In the meantime, and assuming this tragedy is, as it appears, the result of faulty design and/or construction, I agree with the OP that the responsible party or parties should be held to account.
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25-05-2014, 23:34
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#88
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,921
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
Mark,
The full keel ketch "Elusive" you referred to is, if my information is correct, a Morgan OI 41. These boats were mass produced for the Caribbean charter market years ago and were less than quality boats. They served their purpose in the charter business and a few have gone offshore but a poor choice in my opinion. That said it never lost a keel and I doubt any of the many hundreds built ever lost a keel.
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25-05-2014, 23:49
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#89
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,371
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
> losing a keel generally means a sudden capsize and thus likely scenario for loss of life
Not on a cat.
D,RFC...
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26-05-2014, 01:53
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#90
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: on board, Australia
Boat: 11meter Power catamaran
Posts: 3,648
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM
> losing a keel generally means a sudden capsize and thus likely scenario for loss of life
Not on a cat.
D,RFC... 
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