The criteria of "blue"

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Wild Bird

The last thing we need is more regulation. If you had a blue water standard it would be only a matter of time before you would be banned from going to sea in anything less...

I agree those sentiments: in NZ we have too much regs - not allowed to go offshore without a survey, a liferaft, SSB - adds a whole heap of cost that some would rather do without.

But, the ISO standards on stability and strength are a bit like Lloyds rules - you can choose to use them or ignore them and apply your own standards - but builders must provide you with the information to allow you to make an informed choice based on facts. Lloyds rules have been around for centuries and no one would dispute their value in determining what is best practice.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Wild Bird

The last thing we need is more regulation. If you had a blue water standard it would be only a matter of time before you would be banned from going to sea in anything less. People should have the right to go to see in what ever they wish. Some of us will choose a boat with blue water credentials and some will not. My boat was built in an era before reliable weather forecasts were the norm. It was built and designed to cross oceans. One survived a Cat 4 hurricane in the Pacific in the 1980s. It wouldn't be everybody's ideal boat but it is mine. I guess that's why there are so many different boats out there. Everybody has a different idea about what is right for them.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

What boat u got?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

If you can give me a boat that has its maximum righting force at between 55 and 65 degrees but also has an AVS of 155 and a fin keel of course I will take it, but don't think it exists and that would stop me showing off my party trick in the Bahamas of being able to cruise in 3 foot of water.

Southerly 110 is quite close to these specifications

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

This is of great interest to me (you may have noticed) so thanks for providing specifics that I didn't want to have to read the entire standard to find out.

BUT remember those standards are a minimum for offshore - a compromise agreed by committee - Doane (Modern Cruising Sailboats) quotes other designers as recommending higher than the minimum. Some of us down here are straight out into the roaring 40s, so we can't do compromise - blue must mean 'blue'.

I think you need to be an expert to chase extra blue when it comes to stability. Going after an increased AVS will have a consequence of reducing your righting power further back if the distribution graph is too shallow.. All these number have cause and effect implied. If I was you Nevisdog I would root out a navel designer who understands your waters and your needs and ask that person what is best for you. I would not make an amateurs choice based on the fluffle and buffle we see on the forum. It is too subjective here fella.

I think what we gain here on this forum is the ability to understand what a designer would tell us but not really make judgements for ourself absolutely.

I had a friend who bought a boat in Turkey and then moved to NZ. Some one skippered his boat over for him but he never really used it in NZ coz I think he was a bit scared. Was a sub 50 jeanneau.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Southerly 110 is quite close to these specifications

But the southerly has a ballasted keel. Fin keel is the order of the day.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

... I would not make an amateurs choice based on the fluffle and buffle we see on the forum. ...

This forum adds value to what we already know. Cost (and associated condition/maintenance history, as someone wisely pointed out) will always be the deciding factor for me but seeing what others have been able to avoid is useful. AVS and STIX provides new information but I've found it simply reinforces my long-held view that a Swan (too expensive though), Island Packet, Rustler 36, Vancouver 34 and any of their close design cousins (traditional "old" designs, like the Nic 35) assuredly meet my requirements, while the Jenneaus, Beneteaus, Hunters, etc, etc, most assuredly do not. All of this discussion helps us form an opinion that has been forming in my mind for at least ten years, with one year left to go before D-day.

I'm very glad to have been part of this discussion. Of course we must all sort out the wheat from the chaff, but some very experienced people have contributed here and it's not hard to spot them.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

This forum adds value to what we already know. Cost (and associated condition/maintenance history, as someone wisely pointed out) will always be the deciding factor for me but seeing what others have been able to avoid is useful. AVS and STIX provides new information but I've found it simply reinforces my long-held view that a Swan (too expensive though), Island Packet, Rustler 36, Vancouver 34 and any of their close design cousins (traditional "old" designs, like the Nic 35) assuredly meet my requirements, while the Jenneaus, Beneteaus, Hunters, etc, etc, most assuredly do not. All of this discussion helps us form an opinion that has been forming in my mind for at least ten years, with one year left to go before D-day.

I'm very glad to have been part of this discussion. Of course we must all sort out the wheat from the chaff, but some very experienced people have contributed here and it's not hard to spot them.

Have you visited the friendship yard? They do something quite interesting but i would imagine the price is through the roof. Buts it worth a look at on paper. Gives another base. Surfari 53 Photo Gallery

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

But the southerly has a ballasted keel. Fin keel is the order of the day.

Can't have it all can't you?

[boatman61]

These kind of Threads always crack me up as sooner or later(usually sooner) it degenerates to a load of BUMPH copied and pasted from various sites written by designers and builders with little or no real blue water experience or the need to maintain these so called Blue Water Boats.
Otherwise maybe.. just maybe one could buy a boat with an easy to access engine.. and not need 7ft long arms and a rubber body.. water and fuel tanks you don't have to rip half the boat apart to get at if something starts leaking.. and decent storage space.. middle of nowhere is blue water.. not somewhere with the latest and greatest high tech boatyard

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Maybe there should be an A+ category that considers off season and extremes latitudes and or force 10 which I don't think is a compliance criterion for Cat A qualification.

Why bother, you all will just bitch and moan about A+. Then you'll be wanting A++ and A+++ or perhaps lets call them all A+10, A+11 & A+12

I don't know why the Euro categories are even brought up in these discussions. It can be useful when you are looking for a boat, but only to exclude boats from your shopping list. If you are planning a coconut run or crossing the med away from the coast, exclude everything below cat A. After that it's time to stop relying on a EU agency for your choice and start using your own brains.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by boatman61

These kind of Threads always crack me up as sooner or later(usually sooner) it degenerates to a load of BUMPH copied and pasted from various sites written by designers and builders with little or no real blue water experience or the need to maintain these so called Blue Water Boats.
Otherwise maybe.. just maybe one could buy a boat with an easy to access engine.. and not need 7ft long arms and a rubber body.. water and fuel tanks you don't have to rip half the boat apart to get at if something starts leaking.. and decent storage space.. middle of nowhere is blue water.. not somewhere with the latest and greatest high tech boatyard

Yes....Some people just do it without needing the approval of others.

Gary..A very talented shipwright/ delivery skipper friend of mine has owned this beautiful old classic for years doing many single handed ocean passages with it.

Now buying a new boat this beauty is for sale and also included in boat inventory... a 1999 texas special fender strat ! ..... Go figure !

http://www.pgyc.org/for-sale/camper-...son-anthea.php

Anyone interested in contacting Gary directly...just PM me for his email.... as he is just finalizing the purchase of a waukiez pretotien 35 and will consider all offers for Anthea.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Why bother, you all will just bitch and moan about A+. Then you'll be wanting A++ and A+++ or perhaps lets call them all A+10, A+11 & A+12

I don't know why the Euro categories are even brought up in these discussions. It can be useful when you are looking for a boat, but only to exclude boats from your shopping list. If you are planning a coconut run or crossing the med away from the coast, exclude everything below cat A. After that it's time to stop relying on a EU agency for your choice and start using your own brains.

"I don't know why the Euro categories are even brought up in these discussions." - Because the science and technology behind those standards is interesting? Standards would seem quite an appropriate point of discussion for a thread about blue water sailing. I guess we could talk about how to make the perfect layer cake in a gale if you prefer. Does it really matter what people want to talk about? Just jump in on what interests you and jump out on what does not or take the thread on a new tack and introduce a theme that concerns itself with what you think is important based on your experience.

[oldragbaggers]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Designers just need to build a women's shoe lockers into the bilge and then there would more than enough ballast to stop a boat tipping. Designers are missing a trick

Better use of space is wine storage. Full wine bottles are heavier than shoes. And it keeps the wine cool.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by boatman61

These kind of Threads always crack me up as sooner or later(usually sooner) it degenerates to a load of BUMPH copied and pasted from various sites written by designers and builders with little or no real blue water experience or the need to maintain these so called Blue Water Boats.
Otherwise maybe.. just maybe one could buy a boat with an easy to access engine.. and not need 7ft long arms and a rubber body.. water and fuel tanks you don't have to rip half the boat apart to get at if something starts leaking.. and decent storage space.. middle of nowhere is blue water.. not somewhere with the latest and greatest high tech boatyard

I have noticed some builders are niching this as a selling point such as passport yachts that dedicate a lot of space to giving superior engine access. That is quite a brave thing to do by the designer/builder coz its not a very sexy point for the novice. Shiny coffee makers would be more emotional.

Have a question for you and maybe you can throw some light on it. Would you say that every square inch of a hull below the water line must be able to provide some kind of access solution whilst mid ocean or do we have to accept that in a complex boat total access is something that we simply can not have?

Incidentally, 12000 hits and no degeneration thus far. A few blows a long the way but no storms in anyone's tea cup on anyone's armchair that I can recall.. The thread is quite a happy ship.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

"I don't know why the Euro categories are even brought up in these discussions." - Because the science and technology behind those standards is interesting? Standards would seem quite an appropriate point of discussion for a thread about blue water sailing. I guess we could talk about how to make the perfect layer cake in a gale if you prefer. Does it really matter what people want to talk about? Just jump in on what interests you and jump out on what does not or take the thread on a new tack and introduce a theme that concerns itself with what you think is important based on your experience.

How about 'Built to Lloyd's Specifications' where the boat is inspected through each stage of its build rather than something introduce and pushed through Brussels to stop the flow of cheaper foreign built boats back in the 90's when the GBP and euro bought a lot of boat..
Science.. WTF science is behind CE.. how fast one can crap..?