The criteria of "blue"

[sailpower]

I’ve done Boston to Bermuda (6.5 days) on a Bristol 41.1. Really bad weather the last 30 hours. Was that a bluewater trip? Is the Bristol 41.1 thus a bluewater boat? We were followed in by a Pearson 32 with a young couple on board. They had been preparing for three years. Is that Pearson 32 now a bluewater boat?

Another trip was Bermuda-Tortolla on a C&C 34R. It was a 1,000 mile milk run but the guys bringing it to Bermuda on the first leg got hammered with one guy having to be taken off with a broken arm before getting to Bermuda. Is a C&C 34R now a bluewater boat.

I did an Annapolis-Bermuda Race on a Camper-Nicholson 60. Strange race as it was closed hauled most of the Atlantic portion. Probably a bluewater boat right? Etc.

These boats have nothing in common except for the fact that they went somewhere, safely. There are thousands more stories.

I think that as long as sailors go to sea in what they have or can afford there won’t be a consensus of what is suitable nor is it necessary that there be.

Rounding capes and sailing to where it freezes are entirely different things of course but those souls already know what they want through years of experience and I doubt that they will care about what someone else says they should have particularly when that someone else lacks the sailing CV that they have.

So, what’s the point here? None at all that I can see. I offer up the many thousands of inconclusive posts on this topic throughout the internet as evidence of that.

OTOH many opinion books have been written on the subject so why not one more? Some dreamer will probably buy it.

[jwcolby54]

Sailpower, the fact that a boat arrived does not discuss safety. You intentionally make every trip that gets there "safe". So if I drink and drive, and make it home, I am driving safely?

You got a weird sense of safe.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Mike R

Question.... If the crap hit the fan... What would you rather be on, A Benneteau 42 or a Mason 43?

With that decidedly offset companionway on the Mason, the answer to that question could depend upon which tack you're on... :-)




Definitely an undesirable characteristic in an offshore boat, Joe Minick learned that the hard way a few years ago when they were knocked down to starboard during a microburst at anchor in Greece...

If the Benny is one of the First Series designed by German Frers back in the 80's, I'd be pretty content with that...

The late Jim Mertz did 30 Newport-Bermuda Races, and 7 Marion-Bermudas... I expect he knew a thing or 2 about what makes for a good boat offshore...

Under Way | Soundings Online

His last boat, ALLEGRA, was a First 42...

[FastCruiser]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

I kind of have a soft spot for the bene sense 55. I know, I know but... On the social front looks like a fun happy boat.

Maybe in reality for 95% of the time that is all that is needed. For that ocean crossing could just get a couple of cunnard tickets.

Now thats the reality of cruising.. Dont expect that boat to go crashing into ice-burgs or sail to weather in an 80 knot front BUT, for the most part, if its comfortable cruising you're looking for, using common sence and doing your crossings in the best time of year , you'll find that boat to be more than you have ever expected..

I spoke to a couple people who had been cruising for a good number of years and asked them what the weather really was out there. In all their years, they said they had only seen winds over 20 knots a handful of times. 30 knots only a couple and once off the coast of south Africa they saw 40s. now those are pretty good odds in my book.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by sailpower

I’ve done Boston to Bermuda (6.5 days) on a Bristol 41.1. Really bad weather the last 30 hours. Was that a bluewater trip? Is the Bristol 41.1 thus a bluewater boat? We were followed in by a Pearson 32 with a young couple on board. They had been preparing for three years. Is that Pearson 32 now a bluewater boat?

Another trip was Bermuda-Tortolla on a C&C 34R. It was a 1,000 mile milk run but the guys bringing it to Bermuda on the first leg got hammered with one guy having to be taken off with a broken arm before getting to Bermuda. Is a C&C 34R now a bluewater boat.

I did an Annapolis-Bermuda Race on a Camper-Nicholson 60. Strange race as it was closed hauled most of the Atlantic portion. Probably a bluewater boat right? Etc.

These boats have nothing in common except for the fact that they went somewhere, safely. There are thousands more stories.

I think that as long as sailors go to sea in what they have or can afford there won’t be a consensus of what is suitable nor is it necessary that there be.

Rounding capes and sailing to where it freezes are entirely different things of course but those souls already know what they want through years of experience and I doubt that they will care about what someone else says they should have particularly when that someone else lacks the sailing CV that they have.

So, what’s the point here? None at all that I can see. I offer up the many thousands of inconclusive posts on this topic throughout the internet as evidence of that.

OTOH many opinion books have been written on the subject so why not one more? Some dreamer will probably buy it.

Well.. You say there is no point but you did make a point. Quite a fine point in fact and it will be absorbed in mind and made reference to over other points because it was proffered by an experienced contemporary yachtsman and maybe that's the only point we need here - the continual recycling of knowledge through discussion!

P.s - but I did get your point.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by sailpower

...I think that as long as sailors go to sea in what they have or can afford there won’t be a consensus of what is suitable nor is it necessary that there be.... So, what’s the point here? None at all that I can see...

There's not much common ground so far between those on the one hand that want a scientific measure of inherent 'safety' and those of the other persuasion who say it's all down to crew skill, common sense, limitless prior knowledge, or whatever else we can think up, so long as it can't be measured.

So let's first find some common ground we can all agree on:
I believe most developed nations, including EU and USA, have by now adopted ISO 12217 in some form or other; this defines MINIMUM legal requirements for stability - the commonly referred to 'Cat A', Offshore. I trust no one seriously disputes this MINIMUM legal requirement for any production yacht built today (110 degree angle of vanishing stability, beyond which the yacht will tip over, seems absolutely minimal to me). After all, this internationally adopted standard is based on experience of numerous disasters over recent decades that highlighted serious deficiencies in yacht design (who can forget the 1979 Fastnet disaster, the 1998 Sydney-Hobart tragedy?).

If we accept (and I hope we all do) that there must be some MINIMUM level of stability below which no yacht should ever venture offshore, then surely it's a good idea to publish that data so we can all be well informed on what we are about to purchase?

This appears to be the view shared by most national authorities throughout the world, since (I believe - correct me if wrong) most have adopted ISO 12217.

And now we are all aware of this standard, doesn't this make it easier for new buyers to fairly compare different yachts? If we prefer spacious interiors then that's fine, we can easily compare different yachts, but if others prefer a higher level of vanishing stability than the absolute minimum (which that 1998 UK board of enquiry, remember, described as "not suitable for ocean crossing") then surely we are entitled to make that choice, with reliable and readily available figures to help us choose?

I note the Bene First 42.7 has an AVS of 118 (not bad), while the Vancouver 34 has an AVS of 139, for example - not a huge difference but worth noting IMO.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

Sailpower, the fact that a boat arrived does not discuss safety. You intentionally make every trip that gets there "safe". So if I drink and drive, and make it home, I am driving safely?

You got a weird sense of safe.

Why not? If you made it home safely AND did not cause any accidents nor ran red lights, etc, you were driving safely that particular time ONLY. On the other hand if someone sober went through red lights and eventually caused an accident they were not driving safely.

Now if you ALWAYS drive drunk that's another issue altogether.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

I'll bite.

I would rather be on the boat that has the "best skipper," that is the one who has experience, proven good judgement, a cool head, and great sea sense and better than average seamanship AND leadership skills during a challenging event.

Written like a crew member and not a captain. So... Your long term plan is to crew on sailboats or hire a good skipper when you eventually buy a boat?

Interesting.

Your plan doesn't work so well for a cruising couple. I think most would opt for the better boat and rely on their own skills... And not hire the more experienced skipper.

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

Sailpower, the fact that a boat arrived does not discuss safety. You intentionally make every trip that gets there "safe". So if I drink and drive, and make it home, I am driving safely?

You got a weird sense of safe.

Not really. Your comparison, while an interesting debating strategy, isn't applicable. DUI is, rightly, against the law. There is no law (yet) about the kind/type/brand of boat that one must select to go voyaging. Unlike DUI, I hope that there never is.

Most of the risk associated with many of these cruises to the destinations that most cruise to can be managed. There is always the unforeseen as well as the idiotic but that goes with sailing just as it does in life. Can we 100% legislate the risk of living out of life? Should we try?

All that aside, and to the original point, I don't see how it is possible to prescribe a universal criteria for a boat to do what diverse people want it to do.

These discussions, to me, continue to make that obvious.

[farm sail]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

You could be right. As more people take up cruising it could be time for an injection of regulation from an external body to give better definition and clarification. However in the meantime the claim by a "designer" as to their blue boat virtues over and above another with the same certification has to be regarded as worthless because there is nothing to judge or measure by.

are you kidding me. you want the gov to tell us what is and is not blue water capable? that is a very bad road to go down. what is blue water capable in one persons hands should not be taken out of the kiddie basin by another.

and on another side, what was once a blue water boat as built may no longer be even close if not maintained to the same standard

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Well.. You say there is no point but you did make a point. Quite a fine point in fact and it will be absorbed in mind and made reference to over other points because it was proffered by an experienced contemporary yachtsman and maybe that's the only point we need here - the continual recycling of knowledge through discussion!

P.s - but I did get your point.

It has been awhile since I was considered "contemporary".

[markpierce]

At least (even more) as important, what is a "bluewater sailor" (skills, mental attitude, etcetera needed).

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by markpierce

At least (even more) as important, what is a "bluewater sailor" (skills, mental attitude, etcetera needed).

Good question.... These are at the top of my list.
Conservative, Self Contained 'problem solving' Skills, Disciplined, Detail Oriented, Communicator, Meteorologist, Crew Sensitive.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

(who can forget the 1979 Fastnet disaster, the 1998 Sydney-Hobart tragedy?).

Interestingly in the 79' Fastnet 23% of the boats rolled, in the 98' Sydney - Hobart only 3% of the boats rolled. So maybe boats have improved after all...

[Greenhand]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Good question.... These are at the top of my list.
Conservative, Self Contained 'problem solving' Skills, Disciplined, Detail Oriented, Communicator, Meteorologist, Crew Sensitive.

I fail. I haven't figured out how to keep the sweat and poop in.