The couch sailing thread

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Well, first off, I would say modern boats often have LESS tankage than old boats. But I understand your point. If you are going to have a modern boat, then very small tankage is maybe the way to go, have a water maker and a small tank.

Most boats are built for weekend sailors, not offshore. Speed, room, ease of handling balanced rudder are what people like. Oh... and marble, Corian and fancy upholstery! That has a large effect on what is built. Offshore is the equivalent of off road 4 wheeling. You dont take a Nissan Sentra 4 wheeling.

Firstly you need to define what’s offshore. Very extreme weather can be found in the med and Northern European coasts. Hence vessels spending time in these areas have to have sea handling and reefing systems.

Boats reflect people homes and their standards. 50 years ago people peed in a bucket in a shed outside. These days they do so in most better circumstances, their boats follow their tastes.

This complete BS peddled by some that simply because you have a nice modern luxurious interior somehow you or the boat are too “ soft “ for offshore sailing is utter nonsense.

This is not camping and it’s not the 50s

Offshore is not “ 4 wheeling “ offshore is merely extended voyaging. Boats doing extended voyages need to be power independent but more importantly , must be comfortable. Cruisers today want to arrive refreshed clean , showers and relaxed, not some ocean hobo. Their boats will have water makers., Solar , washing machines etc etc.

No need for big tanks or huge batteries when you can make water and generate power.

I’ve done long blue water passages in modern hull form boats. Probably more then most Armchair sailors here “ by an large these boats in 43 feet up and well able for the ocean crossings undertaken by typical long distance cruisers.

They are also extremely comfortable to then live on them in the cruising grounds they then reach . Crossing oceans is a very small part of theses boats time frames.

A 4x4 can be a bone shaker beat up 1960s Toyota , it’s can also be a Range Rover or a G wagon.

Todays customers want good looking contemporary boats. Interiors that mirror the design asthetics in their houses but they want fast boats , easily handled often by small crew.

None wants some dark teak boat that’s weighs 20 tons and can’t move in anything less then a F8 , or has small berths or poor dark interiors.

That’s why HR build what they do. It’s what they’re customers want and these boats will happily bring them around the world As will most modern reasonably big boats.

I don’t understand this “ longing “ for a dated vessel out of the past. It’s like trying to look for a Stanley steamer and trade in your EV. It’s based on outdated notions of what makes a good boat for extended voyages in the typical trips most long distance cruisers do.

Or perhaps you think the couple leaving Greece for Australia in a well prepped Beneteau 473 would prefer to pee in a bucket , lie in small berths and peer in a gloomy interior. Seemingly not it seems not do their contemporaries or peer groups. either.

[Rumrace]

It’s not a competition so buy what pleases you. I guess retro doesn’t appeal to the majority. I never liked narrow tails on sailboats. I think some of what these threads discuss is just evolution of the hull and keel. Arguably is not much better and as you point out but progress we are told. My previous boat had two helms a floor apart. Power hulls have gone through a sea of changes to return to the blunt bow of the 40’s. it’s progress they say, I don’t believe it, but I’m probably wrong. Did you know the stepped hull was invented for aircraft in the 20’s didn’t show up on boats until the 80’s on Donzi.
Classic boat the new Hinckley 53. Stunning new classic. Some one mentioned too much shiny wood. I never noticed. I know their power boats and the build is famous for quality. 2m budget.
As to 90’s quality I’d say no, not in fibreglass boats. Vacuum bagging failures waste material, chopper gun use on decks components swim platforms. A rush to market by 50 companies now gone. I’d say the good old days were the learning curve.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

It’s not a competition so buy what pleases you. I guess retro doesn’t appeal to the majority. I never liked narrow tails on sailboats. I think some of what these threads discuss is just evolution of the hull and keel. Arguably is not much better and as you point out but progress we are told. My previous boat had two helms a floor apart. Power hulls have gone through a sea of changes to return to the blunt bow of the 40’s. it’s progress they say, I don’t believe it, but I’m probably wrong. Did you know the stepped hull was invented for aircraft in the 20’s didn’t show up on boats until the 80’s on Donzi.

Classic boat the new Hinckley 53. Stunning new classic. Some one mentioned too much shiny wood. I never noticed. I know their power boats and the build is famous for quality. 2m budget.

As to 90’s quality I’d say no, not in fibreglass boats. Vacuum bagging failures waste material, chopper gun use on decks components swim platforms. A rush to market by 50 companies now gone. I’d say the good old days were the learning curve.

Leaving aside hugely expensive virtually semi custom , most boats today will have contemporary designs particularly European builders that make up the world biggest market share.

Interiors will reflect domestic aesthetics. Pastels , light woods , laminate materials and minimising maintenance

Hydrodynamically the fin keel , spade rudder has largely swept all other forms aside as any walk around a boat show will aptly demonstrate.

Of course modern homes abound with mod cons. Boats will therefore be no different

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

It’s not a competition so buy what pleases you.

Right!

This young lady has sailed over half way round the world solo on her 27'er.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpHsEABWL7U

[Pegu Club]

Like what was said up thread, “it’s not a competition”, it’s all about what one considers an upgrade, buy the boat that makes you happy, and suits your needs, wether that is tankage or a damn nice living room and bedroom down below, the key is to get a boat that works for what you are going to do with it.

Fair winds,

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Speed under sail , hydrodynamic efficiency. Light airs performance. Helm Response.

The sea hasn’t changed the demands of customers have other wise we’d all in square riggers.

a Sailing boat is a engineering vehicle as more is understood about hydrodynamics and modern materials builders can light AND strong

Heavy encapsulated Keels ard largely a holdover from wooden construction.

People these days want to sail and sail fast.

Go fin and spade , go light , sail fast , live slow.

I think modern stuff is great, who wants a teak coffin with the sailing characteristics of a brick.

That why none of that “ auld “ stuff is built anymore. Nobody wants it.

Modern yachts are taking more people to sea and over significant distances then anytime in previous history. Very seaworthy production craft are plying the oceans. The proof is out there in front of you. I watched two Beneteau Oceanis leave for the US from geeece. Both had few issues crossing.

Just saw a jeanneau being prepped for a voyage med to Australia. Looks great

50 years if you sailed a small boat to Australia the Queen would have likely knighted you. !!

First thing is all monohull sailboats are slow so unless you are racing and want to be first over the finish line speed isn't that big of a deal.

After you have sailed for a few years at speeds above 20 knots you will have a better understanding of just how slow monohulls can be

Newer fin keel boat do point better so it will just take longer to get upwind at times on an old full keel boat.

Some of us enjoy history and just like the old style seaworthy designs of the older boats.

https://www.yachtingworld.com/featur...folkboat-67743

[hlprmnky]

Ahoy, fellow couch sailors! I’m only a couple seasons into boat ownership and I begin to understand the snowbird phenomenon - what am I to *do* with myself between now and mid-May?

About the endless debate on what is and what ain’t “a real bluewater boat”: the claim I’ve seen made that gives me the most pause is not about the safety of a bolt-on fin keel or spade rudder for offshore work, but rather that the motion in a seaway of a long-keel, narrow design is so much better than the smashing and bashing a more contemporary hull shape suffers, particularly to weather.

Some folks claim that they would never, ever, do passagemaking on anything without a full keel because only those designs are seakindly enough to endure; at the same time any anchorage you see on a YouTube video from Tangaroa or Fiji sure appears to have plenty of fin-keel, spade-rudder, modern designs on the hook.

I’m not sure how to evaluate the claims of long-term motion comfort and the impact thereof on crew sharpness and morale, however, short of crewing on both and older and a newer boat for a passage (ideally the same passage) that has both upwind and downwind legs. That’s a lot to arrange for someone who struggles to get out to his boat for necessary projects and daysails as it stands.

[boatman61]

And.. all those boats got there sailing downwind along the Milk Run..
That's why every year boats with EU reg pop up for sale in the Caribe because few owners want to take on the tougher sail back to Europe with variable winds and often beating into E'lies.. or, they hire a delivery Skipper..
Personally I love the W to E Transat..
Currently set to view a Vancouver 27.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by hlprmnky

... video from Tangaroa or Fiji ....

Tangaroa is not a place, it's a diety or force.

[argosail]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

So with my boat out on the dry for repairs and wintering, here I am sitting on the couch pondering about a possible upgrade.. until now I have been on the encapsulated keel, they don't build them like they used to, heavy displacement camp. After some years cruising on and off however, I must say the whole 40 year old boat thing is getting .. well .. old. Tanks impossible to get to, plumbing older than myself. Less available storage and tankage than similarly sized more modern boats. And then one keeps wondering.. hell it is the year 2022, things advance. Is it really so that the best boats stopped being built at the end of the last century?

So, if one is looking at upgrading to a boat from this century, it seems to me like no manufacturer has put out any sailboat with a "traditional" hull shape in the last .. 20 years? the ultra wide flat designs with spade rudders and bulbed fin keels that dominate today... I mean.. IF they really are no good on anything above 6Bft etc.. has the world really gone mad? is virtually _no one_ buying sailboats now to sail? seems hard to believe to me.

Don't Shannon, Island Packets, and Pacific Seacraft have traditional shapes/full keels (or modified full) in 2000+ ? But good luck on the price tag!

[hlprmnky]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Tangaroa is not a place, it's a diety or force.

I stand corrected - the place name my mind was reaching for was Rangiroa (I went back to the specific video I had been thinking of to be sure) but it seems there was too much blood in my caffeine system for correct name retrieval or copy-editing. Thanks for checking me!

[Rumrace]

Oddly enough I’ve seen two couches sail on Lake Simcoe in January. Both used typical ice boat custom skates with footstool outriggers. Another fella showed up at the carnival in two canoe Ice Cat. It flipped
I’m sure it’s the same idiots who invent stuff for the cardboard boat race in the Spring.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by thomm225

First thing is all monohull sailboats are slow so unless you are racing and want to be first over the finish line speed isn't that big of a deal.

After you have sailed for a few years at speeds above 20 knots you will have a better understanding of just how slow monohulls can be

Newer fin keel boat do point better so it will just take longer to get upwind at times on an old full keel boat.

Some of us enjoy history and just like the old style seaworthy designs of the older boats.

https://www.yachtingworld.com/featur...folkboat-67743

I’m not arguing against the aficionados desire to own a particular style of boat. I mean I like steam locomotives. But for my daily commute I want a modern fast electrically heated commuters train.

Thus is also why most people simply want contemporary design aesthetics in modern boats. It’s also why sailors want the best hydrodynamic engineering , fin keel spade rudder high tech sails. Etc.

What is nonsense is people ( largely from the US continent ) arguing some yuh need Sclocums Spray to cross oceans. That’s just nonsense.

[Island Time O25]

Best advice I have received years ago was to get a boat I was comfortable with sailing AND within my budget. Everything else is just an opinion, which may or may not be relevant to one's situation.

[boatman61]

What it boils down to is most people (99%) are going to defend/promote what they own.. even if they desperately want to get shot of it...