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Old 30-12-2016, 05:58   #1
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Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

I purchased a loos gauge and I am trying to locate the rigging specs of my boat.

It was never mentioned anywhere in the manual and there is no phone number for Jeanneau.

I also asked my dealer but he was not able to get the specs.

Any ideas?
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Old 30-12-2016, 07:43   #2
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

I can't speak to the specific boat, especially not knowing how she's rigged. But a good (rule of thumb) starting point is to tension things evenly, and to 15% of the breaking strength of the wire. With none of your shrouds flopping about on the leeward side when beating. The headstay on a boat with roller furling's tough to measure with a gauge. Well, unless I've forgotten something. So I just tune it based on sail shape, ie. how much deflection there is in it when you aim the boat upwind in say 12-15kts true. Though if you sail somewhere windy, you may wish to tune the headstay (& everything else) for a bit more breeze (tighter).

BTW, how is the rig configured? And I'm guessing that you don't have a backstay adjuster? Hydraulic, or otherwise. Since if you do then you needn't put a lot of tension on the headstay at the dock. It'll be tuneable under sail with the backstay.
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Old 30-12-2016, 08:06   #3
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
I can't speak to the specific boat, especially not knowing how she's rigged. But a good (rule of thumb) starting point is to tension things evenly, and to 15% of the breaking strength of the wire. With none of your shrouds flopping about on the leeward side when beating. The headstay on a boat with roller furling's tough to measure with a gauge. Well, unless I've forgotten something. So I just tune it based on sail shape, ie. how much deflection there is in it when you aim the boat upwind in say 12-15kts true. Though if you sail somewhere windy, you may wish to tune the headstay (& everything else) for a bit more breeze (tighter).

BTW, how is the rig configured? And I'm guessing that you don't have a backstay adjuster? Hydraulic, or otherwise. Since if you do then you needn't put a lot of tension on the headstay at the dock. It'll be tuneable under sail with the backstay.
Thanks!

I have split backstays that can be adjusted and a fractional headstay.

My spreaders also sweep back.
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Old 30-12-2016, 08:35   #4
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

Got it, thanks. With swept back spreaders, depending on the angle they're set at, to some degree they perform a backstay like function. Helping to stabilize the mast in both the athwartship, & fore & aft direction, including tuning the mast bend. Which, on the latter point it would help to get feedback on someone who knows your specific boat design in order to recommend how much bend to aim for. Something that's fairly easy to measure, usually with the main halyard acting as a plumb line. Though, given the boat's manufacturer, you probably won't have a super bendy rig.

You can do some searches online using variations on the phrase (rig) "tuning guide". And sailmakers, & rigging shops tend to be decent resources from which to glean info. Sometimes to include online tuning guides for specific boats. As well as generic ones based on rig type, boat design, etc. Plus of course try owner's associations & forums. And... the local racing fleet.

Sadly, I'm not well versed at explaining rig tuning via text. Live's another story. And mostly I come cheap... dinner, drinks. A date with the owner's mistress... with or without his knowledge

Edit: It's so basic (to me) that I neglected to mention it, but when the rig's properly tuned. Upwind you want it either perfectly straight in the athwartships direction. Or to curve to leeward in a nice smooth arc, with more deflection the higher up you look.
This, when sighting up a line along the mainsail luff groove, or in line with where it would be were the mast laser beam straight.

Also, a book I commonly mention on rig tuning (& sail trim) is Ivar Dedekam's one. As it has great pics, with illustrative descriptions to go along with the text. It's an old fav, though my copy's been "on loan" for years. https://www.amazon.com/Sail-Rig-Tuni...s=ivar+dedekam

PS: There's also a little info on this stuff in Brian Hancock's book that you can download gratis, Maximum Sail Power. And for the non Supra Genius level sailor, it also has loads of other good info too.
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Old 30-12-2016, 09:11   #5
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

I suspect that you will not get numbers from Jeanneau. Fewcyears ago, when we have received our L400, Lagoon said that the rig should be adjusted after initial shakedown cruise.
No way I could get info. They have sent me to look for 'knowledgeable rigger'.
At the end I did it by look and feel along the lines stated by Uncivilized.
Only our case is simpler (only 3 cables in total - 2 shrouds and forestay).
I am sure you have upper and lower shrouds. You need to attend to that as well.
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Old 30-12-2016, 09:28   #6
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

With a 7/8 or 5/8 swept back shrouds, the matter is a bit more complicated. First off assume that the shrouds are used for tension on the fore stay whereas the back stay is used for mast bend. But there is more going on. Let me explain it by exaggerating things:

Suppose the spreaders are pointing 90 degrees sideways. In that case the shrouds are pulling the mast backwards through the spreaders, preventing mast bend. Now assume the spreaders pointing aft. In that case the shrouds are pushing the mast forward, helping the mast to bend easy. Obviously we don't go to those extremes but the point is that the shroud tension in combination with spreader angle (and spreader length) is used to make the mast less or more bendy (is that a word?).

Now, to make things really complicated, in contrast to what I said earlier, the back stay also introduces some fore stay tension. The trick is to adjust the shrouds and the spreaders in such a way that they in combination with the back stay, they provide the exact fore stay tension and mast bend we want for the sea and wind conditions at any given moment. Isn't sailing a beautiful art?

The only way to get it all right is to develop your "gut sailing feeling" by practising on a small centerboard dinghy. Then take that experience with you to the big boat. Now you know why I sail a Wayfarer next to my big boat. It is to hone my skills and also good fun in the Wednesday night club races.

Minimum shroud tension, as stated by others: The leeward shroud should never be flapping around in the breeze. I aim for about 20% of breaking strength (I used to be a racer) using the folding yard stick method as explained by Seldén masts in their rigging guide.
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Old 30-12-2016, 09:31   #7
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

I would return the Loos gauge and use the money to hire a local rigger to tune the rig and walk you through how to do it. Although I'm not sure how many local riggers you have in Otawa, so your next best option might be finding an experienced sailor in your marina and bribing with beer or whiskey.

Many professional riggers don't own or use Loos gauges, because they're expensive and not really truly necessary - you can check the tune through feel and sight (both at dock and in the under-sail tune).

It's well worth the effort to learn. I've finally gotten my tune down and realized I'd been sailing for two years with small aspects out of tune at times, which likely made the sailing a bit harder.
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Old 30-12-2016, 12:11   #8
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

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Originally Posted by Tessellate View Post
I would return the Loos gauge and use the money to hire a local rigger to tune the rig and walk you through how to do it. Although I'm not sure how many local riggers you have in Otawa, so your next best option might be finding an experienced sailor in your marina and bribing with beer or whiskey.

Many professional riggers don't own or use Loos gauges, because they're expensive and not really truly necessary - you can check the tune through feel and sight (both at dock and in the under-sail tune).

It's well worth the effort to learn. I've finally gotten my tune down and realized I'd been sailing for two years with small aspects out of tune at times, which likely made the sailing a bit harder.
I already paid $1800 to hire a local rigger with decades of experience and my mast is bending to port and my back stays are pretty loose.

He may have the expertise to do the job but he go lazy on mine. He even forgot to pin/tape the turnbuckles.
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Old 30-12-2016, 13:27   #9
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

excellent rigtuning guide on the selden site
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Old 30-12-2016, 13:59   #10
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

The folding rule method by selden is excellent for tuning your rig. However never did understand how tension is applied to the headstay with a furling headsail. I suppose that the tension would be the same as the backstay, but with a stout mast, not so sure.
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Old 31-12-2016, 04:19   #11
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

Hi Epiicc,

I have a similar rig but on a 2004 Jeanneau 43ds with the exception that it is a masthead forestay, not fractional. I just had all the standing rigging renewed ($ $ $ ! !) and interestingly the riggers (Allspars in the UK) never used a gauge at all. They simply told me that after about 1,000Nm i should tighten things up by one turn all the way around which i have now done.

A word of warning on mast bend with in-mast furling. If you put in too much bend you will be pressing the furled main against the slot about halfway up the mast. The amount of pressure depends on yr halyard tension. This might cause the sail to jam at the first fold when you pull the sail out with the outhaul. This was driving me crazy but if you end up with the same problem there are three things you can play around with to get the right balance.
* Halyard tension; obviously you need enough but do not overdo it.
* Mast bend: as the others said already this is a combination of yr shroud tension and the two back-stays. I have a small amount of bend in my mast but nothing like the racers.
* Boom fairlead stopper: Move the stopper back so it is about 2 metres (7 ft for you guys!) from the gooseneck. This might see like an odd item to put on the list but importantly it gives the pull from the outhaul more of a horizontal pull than too much downwards. It eventually it solved by problem.
Best of luck.
Andrew
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Old 31-12-2016, 04:38   #12
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

headstaytension is gonna be higher than backstaytension, unless mast is @50% or further aft...check your vectors...
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Old 31-12-2016, 09:05   #13
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

I can't find anything for my Hunter Vision either.
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Old 05-01-2017, 12:08   #14
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

I got the mast tuned today...

How much mast bend is too much mast bend?
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Old 05-01-2017, 12:25   #15
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Re: Tension rigging specs for 2015 Jeanneau 409

I just looked up the manual I have with my boat. The shrouds are tensioned first which will cause some mast bend, and the back stays last to increase forestay tension. They say ideal mast bend is half of the fore&aft dimension of the cross section of the mast. But this is for my boat which is a masthead rig, not fractional.

Now that you have had yours done I hope the main furling works ok.
Andrew
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