Tallships. Which one?

[barnakiel]

(...)


Sure, but as opposed to what?


As opposed to tools / machinery that is used to make money. Old and beaten up tools, nearing its expiry and costing %% to maintain are used only by businesses that do not know better, or have no other options. Such a business is eating itself out of the place.



I'm struggling to see the logic in this statement.

That's OK. Things are only interesting when they are hard. The easy parts can be done by anybody.


A new build could be build to minimise running and maintenance costs as well as boatyard downtime. All dezireable parameters from business point of view.


A new build could be had so that a proper container fits the hold. This solves problems of cooling / drying / etc. the cargo. This also shortens the time required to onload and offload as well as the tooling required to move the cargo from merchant to merchant / thru Customs Office / Biosecurity, etc.



I think this gets to the core of what a lot of people are asking, and what the OP is dutifully sidestepping.


This is a jury hearing or asocial media forum? Give OP some slack, he may be processing our feedback, traveling, or anything else.


If his critique was that it doesn't have the right old-timey-tall-ship look for the romantic aesthetic required by said business plan, that would be a somewhat valid argument.


Well. Think White Cloud II for a moment. It has the required looks. It also has the required machinery to get the product (charter guests) picked up at 18:00 at Sao Vincente and deliver them to St Georges, two weeks later, at exactly 08:00.



Great looks and great efficiency can be achieved with a modern ship. But only great looks can be had with an old and beaten up one. Without efficiency, as we know, business is invalid.


But a dream is not.



barnakiel

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by Franziska

If you want a new ship, here you go:

https://logistik-aktuell.com/2019/03...-sailing-ship/

&

https://www.sailcargo.org/

So some folks are already at it, as of yet they still seem to have money.

Sort of, not really.

I've seen those guys for a while now, they are a neat project with a youtube channel. They've been building it in the Costa Rica for 3 years, and they're still framing it. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes another 5 years for them to finish it, if the whole project doesn't fall apart before then. I hope they do succeed, it's a neat idea. But, it's not a vessel that the OP can order one of.

[Franziska]

He just needs to talk to the designer, I'm sure they are willing to sell him a set of plans and help him finding a shipyard.

There are still many good shipyards around, for a competitively priced steel hull I'd go to Poland, for a wooden hull perhaps to Turkey.

For refitting an existing hull as sailing vessel the Netherlands would be my choice.

It all depends on the funds available.
There may be cheaper countries to built in than the ones mentioned, but those mentioned have a solid shipbuilding expertise.

Btw. I mentioned the guys building in Costa Rica because they are not only talking about it but instead are actually doing it.
Even though I agree with you, I am not sure if they have the right mindset to commercialy pull it through and turn it into a viable business.

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

As opposed to tools / machinery that is used to make money. Old and beaten up tools, nearing its expiry and costing %% to maintain are used only by businesses that do not know better, or have no other options. Such a business is eating itself out of the place.

It depends on what condition these things are actually in. My point was that from the photos, there's not a ton of evidence that this vessel is not in good operating condition. Also, many successful small businesses use and operate old but well maintained equipment and it makes a lot more financial sense than plopping down huge amounts of up front capital for new equipment that is many times the cost of good condition used equipment.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

That's OK. Things are only interesting when they are hard. The easy parts can be done by anybody.

Ok... not sure what bearing these statements have.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

A new build could be build to minimise running and maintenance costs as well as boatyard downtime. All dezireable parameters from business point of view.

What about the downtime and locked up capital involved with having a new vessel built? Especially with a highly speculative idea like this. If the plan is to get investors to foot the bill, starting small and proving the concept makes a lot of sense. Who's going to just plop down a few million dollars for a new vessel, for a very risky venture, that won't even begin bringing in revenue for a few years while the ship is being built?

Originally Posted by barnakiel

A new build could be had so that a proper container fits the hold. This solves problems of cooling / drying / etc. the cargo. This also shortens the time required to onload and offload as well as the tooling required to move the cargo from merchant to merchant / thru Customs Office / Biosecurity, etc.

This is all true, but it's also possible a less expensive used ship could be modified to fit a container.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

This is a jury hearing or asocial media forum? Give OP some slack, he may be processing our feedback, traveling, or anything else.

Ok, this is true, but he has been pretty actively participating in the conversation, but he hasn't really added much information on his side of things.

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by Franziska

He just needs to talk to the designer, I'm sure they are willing to sell him a set of plans and help him finding a shipyard.

There are still many good shipyards around, for a competitively priced steel hull I'd go to Poland, for a wooden hull perhaps to Turkey.

For refitting an existing hull as sailing vessel the Netherlands would be my choice.

It all depends on the funds available.
There may be cheaper countries to built in than the ones mentioned, but those mentioned have a solid shipbuilding expertise.

Btw. I mentioned the guys building in Costa Rica because they are not only talking about it but instead are actually doing it.
Even though I agree with you, I am not sure if they have the right mindset to commercialy pull it through and turn it into a viable business.

That's a good point. I guess I wasn't clear. Of course he can go get a designer and a builder and plop down a ton of money and get a ship built. My point is that there's not a builder out there who is routinely pumping out sailing cargo ships.

I like the idea of SailCargo, I liked it when I first heard about it a couple years ago. I really have doubts about it's actual viability as a business though. But I hope they succeed.

[Don C L]

The S/V Kwai is exactly the kind of thing you should be looking into I think. If it comes with the business and storage facilities in HI and all the work that has been done to her... it looks like an example of what you're thinking of that has actually been out there doing it. I don't see a boat that has been beaten up, I see a work boat, which is what I think you are thinking of. The work she has been doing cleaning up the gyre of lost nets may be just the kind of thing a foundation would like to support as well.

[PowerMaritima]

“Tallships – which one?”

Hi, Jackofall. Been a longtime follower of the forum but this a first post , in order to comment on your desire to have a sail-cargo ship for the carriage of special high-freight cargoes, and it seems, to satisfy your desire to revisit the swashbuckling, deck-swabbing , shanty-singing comradeship of a 3-masted vessel. To save you a lot of research, money and headaches, you might like to look at “Ceiba”, a 3-masted, 45 metre barquentine that’s currently being built of hurricane-felled timber by skilled shipwrights, blacksmiths, riggers, sailmakers, etc. from around the world in a ‘green’ yard here in Costa Rica. She’s designed for a cargo capacity of 250 tons/350 m3 to ply between here and Pacific ports to Vancouver with organic coffee and cocoa as well as, I believe, up to 12 working/paying passengers. She will have a lithium/electric auxiliary propulsion plant recharged by solar/wind/shaft generation. I have recently visited the yard and was exceedingly impressed and believe Sailcargo Inc., the project Owners, would welcome further investors. See info@sailcargo.org. For the record, I have no commercial interest in the project.
Mike

[Franziska]

Regarding Kwai, I also think that's an opportunity, just get a very very thorough survey before any thoughts on purchasing.

Secondly you need to make sure that there are no legislative changes ahead which the vessel and or operations could not pass in the medium future.

Sometimes businesses get sold for the reason that the current owners understands that in the medium term a huge investment might come up which would throw them out of business.

I am not saying that is the case here, but researching the complete operation very very diligently before getting into any serious financial dealings seems very prudent.

[Jackofall]

Barnakiel is right. I've laid out the flop,(coffee idea that anyone could do) this thread is the turn, I'm still not going to show you my cards yet.
The river isnt on the market yet. The best boat would be to take advatage of someone eles's misfortune and take over their half completed resto with an empty interior, unfinished deck, hull, mast and rigging new. (Not saying how I would rebuild it). Yes it does have to be a good looking ship, and sail good too. No it doesnt have to be a full rigged square sail. But I think it does need to be the gaff rigged with the square sail fore mast. Only one mast to climb the rest can be handled from the deck. Having a 10ft container fit in is a brilliant idea.
Regarding Kwai, she looks very interesting as a turn key entry into "sail cargo". Nothing wrong with her at all. But lets be honest. Shes a work boat with questionable sailing ability. Maybe I'm wrong but she looks more lkke a motor sailer. Anyways she is not what I need and it would take too much much money to turn her into what I need.

[Franziska]

Raising the mast and adding more sail area helps only very little if any on an existing full displacement hull.
Hullspeed is your limit.

It might improve light wind speed a tad though, but you would need to reef earlier.

[Muaddib1116]

So... what's the point of this conversation then?


You open up with, hey I have this plan, somebody tell me if this is a good plan. And then, over the course of the conversation you don't answer requests for more details about your plan, you either change various aspects of your plan or admit to being misleading about what your plan was in the first place.

[Jackofall]

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

So... what's the point of this conversation then?


You open up with, hey I have this plan, somebody tell me if this is a good plan. And then, over the course of the conversation you don't answer requests for more details about your plan, you either change various aspects of your plan or admit to being misleading about what your plan was in the first place.

Quite the opposite, I've gained enough info to really focus in on my business plan. I would like to thank all of you for your contributions. They have all been helpful, even the skeptics. No I have not been misleading. I really do plan on doing the coffee trade. But thats just one aspect of the plan. I needed to find a ship that can fit both. Now I know what I need. Something very similar to Lady Ellen but with a differnt layout. But still keeping the beauty, deck work, needs to look high end without being luxurious.

Edit: Simple elegence was the term I was looking for.

[Muaddib1116]

Well, good luck, I hope it works out and someday you can reveal the full plan to us.

[mako]

Jack, it’s unclear if you really need the business to be profitable or if it is a quality of life which you are looking for.

However a more realistic approach would be to start smaller, with the 83ft LPP and three cabins (6 pack) and a cargo capacity of perhaps 10-20 tons.

Buildup the business routes and customer base, gain experience, refine your business model through reality, not theoretical ideas, perhaps earn your 100 ton or 500 ton license, gain the confidence of your insurer who likely will be Lloyd’s.

A few years later then you have a solid proposition to present to investors. Then you jump to a ship 4 times larger and 16 times more expensive to operate. Maybe even a new build.

[barnakiel]

Ok... not sure what bearing these statements have.

They have their literal meaning. To say that all the easy and simple business routes have been employed and explored and easy and simple things are today done by simple people.


The exciting part is to think up, discuss and maybe deploy plans and ways that either did not exist before (e.g. fusion energy, blockchain, cloud computing, GM food, etc.) or else re-explore niches active earlier (e.g. sail ship cargo trade) but got abandoned or, due to economy evolution, disregarded by the big players.


We are animals and animals get bored too. Doing something exciting, if seen as stupid by many, is worth for its own sake. Someone said once: "to have the fun riding".


I think OP's idea is a great one - a great intellectual exercise with many facets that can be discussed by many sailors and businessmen.


Steve Jobs used to fire people who agreed with him all the time. Since they always agreed, he did not need them. (I believe this statement is an urban legend though). But it is a colorful one.


All that is easy and simple has been done already. Easy is done by simple people today. The big stuff is done by big money, such things are out of our reach. We can only think up new things, or else we need to re-invent old things and play with them again.


Alternatives: a) sit and say this can't be done, b) bore ourselves to death.



Cheers,
b.