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Old 06-11-2020, 11:37   #31
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Re: Survey or not to survey

I would survey. A surveyor has years of experience and can assure you of hull integrity and provide you with a valuable independent view of the yacht and its systems. A quality report will give you both assurance and a prioritised jobs or snag list. If he should find something adverse you can legitimately use this to negotiate a fair price - without his independent opinion as evidence you may not persuade the seller of the fault. Three tips from personal experience: unless you are fluent in another language I would seek out an English speaker - without this the nuance of what you want to know may be lost. Secondly, I would only chose someone from a reputable association e.g. YDSA - when you do also ensure they are a full member (and not just an associate) this will ensure you get the right quality of opinion. Thirdly, do not share the whole report with the seller (although for reasons mentioned above you may wish to expose to the seller sections of the report). Remember, you have bought the report and you are the report's commissioner and owner. In the event that you choose not to buy the boat you maybe able to sell the report either to the seller or another potential buyer to offset your cost. All you need to do is to notify the seller's broker that you would be prepared to sell your report for a proportion of what you paid. Thereby, you might even partly offset the cost of your survey. Good luck!
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Old 06-11-2020, 11:54   #32
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Re: Survey or not to survey

The only reason this question is ever asked is....$$$ or whatever other currency is involved. It cost $$ to hire a surveyor, haul the boat, etc....$$ that do not go towards purchasing the boat. You pay sales tax, VAT, etc.....these $$ also do not go towards the purchase price of the boat, but because this is a usual mandatory bitter pill to swallow, you just accept the fact.
If the survey was a " free" procedure, would you still have it done ? Off course you would, nothing like another set of eyes on the subject.
Think of the survey as another VAT charge...suck it in and get it done, at least you'll get something for your money instead of just lining the taxman's pockets.
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Old 06-11-2020, 12:10   #33
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Re: Survey or not to survey

I have never heard of a survey where the survey didn't result in a reduction of price that at least covered the survey fee.

Everyone (broker, surveyor, and most owners) know that the seller ultimately ends up paying the survey fee - just like the seller pays the commission to the buyer's broker. Just another cost of selling a boat.

If you back out of the deal after the survey you are stuck paying the fee - but that's likely a good thing.

I would ask around for a local surveyor who might meet you when you go see the boat for a "pre-offer survey". Many surveyors will do this very inexpensively as there is no written report or liability for them. They can also deliver a sales pitch as to why you should use them for the real survey.

It gives you an opportunity to decide if they are the right person to do the full survey and you will likely get a lot of unbiased advice.

As others say, your insurer will require a copy of the survey report.They will also insist that you fix everything on the report (or nearly everything) before they will cover the boat - and provide proof that you did so in the form of a boatyard bill.

Surveyor's know this and will not put minor items in their written report to keep your repair costs down. If you can't be with surveyor in person during the survey, try to be on a video conference with him as he goes about the boat so he can show you what he finds and you can make a list of the things that may need attention in your first year of ownership.
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Old 07-11-2020, 02:53   #34
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Re: Survey or not to survey

Having a read of "survey 101" linked earlier. Very interesting reading but had to laugh out loud when I read this:

"ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS .....

Now let's play with electricity, unless you are English, my experience with Jaguars, Triumphs and Austin Healey's have convinced me that English people should not be allowed to play with electricity."

Hilarious (and true!) 😂
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Old 07-11-2020, 05:17   #35
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Survey or not to survey

I think it depends on how much money your willing to spend and if your ok with finding things out as you go.
A survey will surely miss something true but most of the issues will be found and identified.

Just because it’s lightly used doesn’t mean it’s in good shape (in fact it might be the opposite actually).

My boat only cost me $10K so I didn’t get a survey but I knew what I was getting into and wanted a boat with some projects.
If I was going to spend $50 or 60k or more then I’d get a survey as it’s cost would be a smaller percentage of the boats initial sale.

What surveyors do isn’t that hard assuming you have marine knowledge. Get yourself a good checklist, camera and a few hand tools and go have a look!
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Old 07-11-2020, 09:10   #36
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Re: Survey or not to survey

Survey, always. My first boat was a Herbulot designed Caravelle, around 25', and being old it sold for 5.000 USD. Notwithstanding the price, I wanted the boat to be surveyed: it was not the loss of money I feared, it was the possible loss of life.
Well done: everything was in order, apart from a couple of badly corroded keel bolts that were difficult to test, and I changed them right before sailing from France to Greece.
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Old 08-11-2020, 05:10   #37
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Re: Survey or not to survey

I built my first boat, so I got to know the workings of a boat inside out. Subsequent to that, I had two more boats, so I consider myself pretty proficient in the boat evaluation department. Yet, prior to purchasing the two boats just mentioned, I elected to have a terrific surveyor go over the boat and much to my surprise he came up with quite a list of things I missed.
The key off course is having a knowledgeable surveyor. This is a topic all of it's own. My guy was tops. The survey took all day...start at 6 am....haulout....a quick sail...run the engine, etc...and then down to the nitty gritty. Pictures of everything. 6 pm, and we were just finishing. I was completely wore out. Then the surveyor still has to drive back to his home and put the package together.
The finished survey read like a book. Easily 40 double sided pages or so, and naturally, several items made it possible for me to knock some $$ of the asking price.

Buying a sailboat in the 6 figure range DEMANDS a survey in my opinion !!
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Old 25-11-2020, 07:07   #38
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Re: Survey or not to survey

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Originally Posted by Haddock1 View Post
For those of us who are British citizens the whole Brexit debacle is becoming a real pain in the a**e especially around the issue of VAT. I will be shortly retiring and am fortunate enough to be able to afford a new boat which I was planning to purchase in the UK and then sail to the Med. With the potential of a double VAT whammy, which I wont go into, I am now thinking of buying a nearly new boat already in the Med and have found a used vessel which is perfect for my requirements and looks like a good buy with all the benefits of being in the Med when we exit.

Also a big plus is someone has already gone through all the commissioning issues and niggles you read so much about on these forums and from friends personal experiences when buying new.

My question is to survey or not to survey? Given the boat in question is only a few years old (2017), seems to have been very well cared for, lightly used (very low engine hours) and spends the winter on the hard under cover, would you bother with a survey?

Appreciate your thoughts.

Mike
The damage done to this boat was not necessary apparent and the consequences of leaving it frightening. Given the complexity and cost of such a boat; unless you really know your stuff, get a survey.
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Old 25-11-2020, 07:15   #39
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Re: Survey or not to survey

Unless you have the ability to survey the boat yourself, it would be foolish not to have a survey by a registered surveyor. Do remember that any defects found by the surveyor will allow you to renegotiate the price to cover the repairs.
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Old 25-11-2020, 07:19   #40
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Survey or not to survey

I’ve found all the defects not a surveyor. Surveyors are people that tell you the forward cabin door is binding but forget to mention the engine is missing

In the main the only reason I’ve done a recent survey was the insurance company needed One . I directed the tone of the report and agreed with the surveyor what would be the mandatory recommendations the only thing I couldn’t do was the moisture tests.

If you understand boats your own knowledge will be largely as good or better then a surveyor

Surveyors have eyes and ears , exactly what u have. They can’t detect anything more then u can by careful observation.

However you clearly need a reasonable level of experience

The last three surveys I’ve commissioned did not result in any reduction in price as I has already identified the primary defects

Even in my recent purchase which had a good surveyor ( who took about 8 hours ) he missed the fact the gas strut in the vang had failed
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Old 25-11-2020, 16:22   #41
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Re: Survey or not to survey

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I’ve found all the defects not a surveyor. Surveyors are people that tell you the forward cabin door is binding but forget to mention the engine is missing
Do you mean missing as in mis-firing or missing as in gone?
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Old 25-11-2020, 16:23   #42
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Re: Survey or not to survey

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Do you mean missing as in mis-firing or missing as in gone?
gone
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Old 28-11-2020, 13:23   #43
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Re: Survey or not to survey

I have just priced a purchase survey for a boat on the hard in Italy, I am not having a sea trial done (well, not yet) mainly because I cant travel to Italy to be there for it. I fully intend to use the travel ban as part of my strategy to put in a lower (but fair) bid. I reckon having the survey information will also help me seal the deal.
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Old 28-11-2020, 22:58   #44
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Re: Survey or not to survey

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Originally Posted by carraigdog View Post
I have just priced a purchase survey for a boat on the hard in Italy, I am not having a sea trial done (well, not yet) mainly because I cant travel to Italy to be there for it. I fully intend to use the travel ban as part of my strategy to put in a lower (but fair) bid. I reckon having the survey information will also help me seal the deal.
While it is nice and beneficial to participate in the sea trial as you get the actual feeling how the boat sails, it is more important that the surveyor does it.
Some items on his list can only be checked while out at sea.
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Old 29-11-2020, 01:33   #45
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Re: Survey or not to survey

If you are buying on a typical YBDSA/ABYA sales contract , ( common in European English sales ) there is a useful reason to survey , the contract has two places you can unconditionally walk away and retrieve your deposit , post survey and post sea trial.

In my case the lift relaunch and survey cost 1100 euros , and as I expected revealed nothing I hadn’t discovered already and agreed a discount with the seller

I did take the opportunity to spend another 500 euros having anodes replaced and a few other things i personally wanted doing while she was out , even though this would be lost money if I walked away ( I knew I wouldn’t be )

I also agreed after the deductions for major service items , which were agreed before the survey , that I would not use the survey to try and knock small items ( like changing the gas hose ) of the purchase price or replacing extinguishers

My own boat sale resulted in zero deductions from the agreed price post survey.

In fact in the last 4 boats I sold , the survey resulted in no change in the agreed price. As a seller unless something major comes out of a survey , I refuse to renegotiate anyway. Unless there is unusual damage or out of character faults . Most survey items on a well maintained boat are cosmetic , age and normal wear , or periodic service items, these items are all reflected in the selling price , I mean yiu arnt buying a new boat. !!!


Personally , unless something major comes out of a survey , it does not result in a discount ( and as a seller I make it clear I will not entertain a series of trivial deductions )

In my case the two major issues were replacement of the bottom rudder bearing and sail drive diaphragm , and drive shaft seal replacement , the rudder issue could be detected by a child and the diaphragm was based on the owner admitting when it was replaced ( as I asked for receipts ) , a surveyor could not have independently detected the diaphragm etc

The surveyor was very through , don’t get me wrong , 8 hours surveying the boat , but nothing in it would have led to any meaningful deductions , and he missed a few things ( the gas strut was gone in the vang )
I also used the liftout to have the Volvo agents verify the condition of the oil top and bottom in the saildrve again independent of the surveyor , ( he did doma magnetic dip of the oil as well )

By all means , survey , but in most cases it produces a report that goes to your insurance and then gathers dust.
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