Suggestions for weatherly shoal draft boat

[squarpeg]

Here is the premise. If you were trying to find the crusing boat that sailed to weather the best with a draft of 4.5ft or less. Length Between 30 - 40 ft. That could be purchased for less than $40k. What would it be? Can it competently sail off a Lee shore in fairly extreme conditions? Assuming competent crew and good sails...

[Montanan]

With an iron jib most any cruiser can depart away from a lee shore.

[squarpeg]

Yeah, I am aware. The thing is i have had several of those. Neither of them could sail out of trouble on there own. Which always left me thinking ... I really hope we don't have engine trouble now or we will be on the rocks....hence the question.

[sandy stone]

4.5 foot draft? Would you consider a centerboard? Or do you have to sail upwind with the reduced draft?

[Ken Fry]

Originally Posted by squarpeg

Yeah, I am aware. The thing is i have had several of those. Neither of them could sail out of trouble on there own. Which always left me thinking ... I really hope we don't have engine trouble now or we will be on the rocks....hence the question.

I have had exactly that feeling several times. Nerve racking.

A Tartan 37 goes to windward well, and draws less that 4.5 feet with the centerboard up, so might be worth looking into.

However, any swing keel/centerboard/daggerboard boat is not great to weather with the appendage lifted (as it would be in shallow water close to rocks).

I used to have a Hobie 33, (a racy ultralight skinny monohull) which was far more weatherly than any cruiser, having very little windage and an effective bulb keel. Once, I awoke to the sound of the keel bouncing off rocks, after the anchor dragged (overnight into what was now a lee shore) and there was nothing I could do other than motor away into deep enough water to sail. No sailboat can start immediately onto a close hauled course, because at zero boat speed, the keel and rudder both have no effect, and cannot resist leeway.

With a boat like the Tartan, (which draws about 7 feet with the board down,) You would not want to anchor in less than 10 feet of water. If you anchor in less, you'd want the board up, and then you no longer have a weatherly boat (but the boat can at least be sailed, because it has a shallow keel). You are probably too close to shore.

If I were anchoring in iffy conditions often, I might want a backup means of propulsion, such an electric outboard, or a hybrid drive.

Outside of anchoring, then any competently sailed boat will sail away from a lee shore with ease -- even shoal draft wing keel boats, etc. You just sail in accordance with the boats compromises.

Many boats are moored 100' out in the water from a cottage, etc, and can be sailed off their moorings without even starting the engine, in virtually any weather.

[Montanan]

Motor sail with a reef mainsail, and best with no foresail if one desires to sail a close reach.

The sail aids in propulsion but mostly it adds a lot of stability against the rolling forces of the waves associated with adverse high wind conditions.

[barnakiel]

It would be a long narrow thing.


With a blade keel + bulb ballast.


And a blade rudder.


similar to : https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/seniorita-helmsman/


also any of the racer S&S designs from 1970-1980


barnakiel

[Tin Tin]

Consider adding leeboards.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

also any of the racer S&S designs from 1970-1980
barnakiel

OP, what you're asking for is as rare as hen's teeth.
In order to claw off a lee shore in "extreme" conditions requires the sail carrying ability that few boats have, and shallow draft issues only compound the problem.
A 100 years ago the Colin Archer rescue boats would tow a couple of fishing boats off a lee shore in a full gale.
The secret? deep draft, lot's of beam, (~17',) and immense sail carrying ability.
If the boat can't "stand up" to the amount of sail necessary to make progress it's a losing proposition.
Another secret? enough sea room to make and accelerate out of your tacks.
As a example of what Barnakiel wrote, here's an early '70s S&S Swan 43, she's in ~60 Kts.
But, she wasn't tacking, just working to get to shelter, (and she has ~7' of draft).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp0qvM98pZY

Notice that she rolls to weather/into the swell after the hit, many of your modern "Dingy with a fin" boats don't do that, they slide sidewise downhill and just keep going over.

[Ken Fry]

Originally Posted by squarpeg

Here is the premise. If you were trying to find the crusing boat that sailed to weather the best with a draft of 4.5ft or less. Length Between 30 - 40 ft. That could be purchased for less than $40k. What would it be?

This (the first question) question is easily answered. A 35 foot Catalina with a 4.5 foot wing keel sails as well as or better than other shoal draft boats of this size: i.e. more-or-less OK. No 4.5 foot draft boat of this size sails well to weather, so you might as well go for a Catalina. (The Tartan I mentioned above goes to weather better, but not with the centerboard pulled up.)

(Go down a size or two to 24 feet: then a J24 sails very well to weather, and draws less than 4.5 feet. An Etchells 22 -- 30 feet loa -- sails extremely well to weather, and draws only 4.5 feet. Not fabulously comfortable for cruising, though.)

The second question (re clawing off a lee shore in extreme conditions)
is not so easily answered, partly because it is ambiguous. What conditions are "extreme"? How much leeway can you make while getting underway? How close winded do you need to be in this imagined scenario? Why would you want to sail away from an approaching lee shore, when it would be so much safer to power away? What did you do to get yourself in this fix? If the engine is problematic, fix that, rather than trying to find a boat that that sails a tiny bit little closer to the wind. It is better to sail a little further off the wind and faster to get away from a lee shore. It is a very rare lee shore that leaves you additionally constrained to having to sail close hauled to get away from it. Sailing a bit freer means that you will be less likely to be forced to tack in a header.

[barnakiel]

Yes.


Shallow (-ish) draft is a big limitation for working up to weather in any built up seas.


Especially once there is excess beam (most new designs are beam (-ish)


Excess beam, especially distributed for volume (plenty of it and early towards the bow) is an upwind joy killer.


If draft is limited, one is best with a narrow boat. As a poster mentioned above, narrow boats need good ballast ratio and the ballast to be optimally lead and only the lowest part of the keel.


https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/nicholson-31/


this above can sail to weather in heavy chop quite well, but it is 5ft deep empty, and OP wants max 4.5ft.


4.5 is very shallo. Very. Likely difficult to find then too.


Perhaps one of the boats that have a swinging keel/daggerboard - (Ovni/Southerly style) ?


barnakiel

[squarpeg]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Motor sail with a reef mainsail, and best with no foresail if one desires to sail a close reach.

The sail aids in propulsion but mostly it adds a lot of stability against the rolling forces of the waves associated with adverse high wind conditions.

This is not an answer to the premise. Assume you have no motor.

[rslifkin]

I'd expect just about any fin keel design to be able to claw its way off a lee shore. Shoal draft boats and wider beam boats will struggle more, especially if the sea state is significant. But unless you're trying to get out of somewhere very narrow with tons of tacking I wouldn't be particularly concerned about making it out. I can't think of a modern-ish sailboat that just won't go upwind.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by squarpeg

....... cruising boat that sailed to weather the best with a draft of 4.5ft or less. Length Between 30 - 40 ft. That could be purchased for less than $40k. Can it competently sail off a Lee shore in fairly extreme conditions? Assuming competent crew and good sails...

This is almost a paradox. You want a short keel that can be sailed off of a lee shore is 'extreme' conditions.

4.5 draft would mean a very short keel. A Mainship 390 trawler draws 3.5 feet. , with a 1.5 foot keel. Boats are about compromises. If you want to sail shallow, don't sail close to a lee shore in bad weather.

Honestly, I suspect a swing keel is going be the solution to your conflicting criteria.

[squarpeg]

Originally Posted by squarpeg

Here is the premise. If you were trying to find the cruising boat that sailed to weather the best with a draft of 4.5ft or less. Length Between 30 - 40 ft. That could be purchased for less than $40k. What would it be? Can it competently sail off a Lee shore in fairly extreme conditions? Assuming competent crew and good sails...

I think so far there is a vote for Catalina 35 wing keel. When I said "fairly extreme conditions" I am not talking about a hurricane. Here is a hypothetical situation...... and this actually did happen to me. You are anchored in great sale cay Bahamas. You are in the bight on that island protected from the north wind. Somewhere around midnight the wind swings round from the south, picks up to 40knots, You start dragging towards the beach. In my case, I started the motor and went around the other side. Lets assume the motor is shot. You have 4.5 draft. You have to sail out. What boat meeting the original criteria do you want if you had to choose??? No centerboards, leeboards etc. allowed.