Suggestions for Bluewater Boats [Newbie]

[clockwork orange]

Originally Posted by slap

Supposedly the Cherubini designed Hunter 37 cutter was noticably better than the other Hunters of the era.

I dont think so, all the ones i mentioned are of the same vintage and design family and i believe of about the same build quality which is no better or worse than most other marques of the day,a good friend of mine has the 37ft cutter,it has soft decks in places and the crappy plastic ports but so do many boats of the vintage in much higher price ranges,you need to go through any old boat and and deal with such things before going offshore.
Steve.

[Brent Swain]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

So why aren't there more steel boats? It's a relatively inexpensive material and easy to work. It's heavy, I suppose.

For several reasons. One is that people are unaware of the huge advantages of steel, and the tremendous punishment they can survive and sail away from, due to misinformation shoveled out over the last 50 years by peddlars of fibreglas boats. People simply don't understand that a steel boat can survive collisions with freighters, and the peace of mind underway on a dark night, which that gives one.
Another reason is that traditional steel boatbuilding methods take 1000 hours just to get a hull and deck together, something that my methods have reduced to 100 hours , or less.
Yet another is that traditional , outdated building methods have often resulted in boats which need a lot of filler to look good and fair, something my methods have eliminated.
Another is the myth that it takes a lot of experience and quialifications to build a steel boat, something my methods, and the many well built boats out there, built by backyard amateurs, and far better boats than many commercially built boats, have disproven time and time again.
Another is the myth that there is a lot of mainenance to keep up a steel boat. While there may be more maintenance than a fibreglas boat which spends it's life in a marina slip, the fact that nothing ever breaks or works loose when it's welded down, leaks don't develop under deck fittings and elsewhere, etc .When doing serious offshore cruising ,the time thus saved is far more than you would spend maintaining a fibreglass boat in the same conditions.
Modern epoxies, and trimming all outside corners on a steel boat with stainless, have reduced the maintenance on my 25 year old 31 footer, to an hour or two a year. Except for the odd place i've chipped it, the original paint is as good as the day I put it on 25 years ago.
Another is people don't understand that if your metal hatch, on a metal boat is locked form the inside, anyone trying to board you in the night would need several hours of serious work with some power tools and a source of juice to run them, just to get inside .
When people give advice on steel boats , ask them how many steel boats they have cruised offshore in.
Any small offshore boat which is lived in for many years ,is heavy.

[SkiprJohn]

Hunter better than Catalina? You've got to be kidding!
regards,

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

Hunter better than Catalina? You've got to be kidding!
regards,

Funny enough a lot of folks in NC thought I was insane taking a 1981 Hunter 37 cutter across the Atlantic to the UK a few years back... especially as three had gone down within a few miles of Cape Lookout in that year... the only thing that I was not seriously happy with was the hull/deck flexing in some very heavy sea's... but then lets face it... all bulkheads only tabbed in so what could I expect...
US design/build quality was a new experience and I now realise you guys build different qualities for different types of sailing ....
unlike us across the pond... who build one quality for all types...

PS: People have also said that about my Beneteau 321 and 331 crossings from Carib.... but guess there's the few who will and the many who won't.....

[hpeer]

Brent,

While I don't have your experience I do tend to concur. I have a Murray 33. I am having some rust issues that I need to get ahead of...but. When I read about the hull-deck leaks, the flexing, the blisters and soggy decks, etc. I am not sorry. I saw a guy buy a big beautiful ketch, then spend three years working on the hull to remove blisters and reset the chain plates. He ended up resheating the entire hull below waterline with glass when he was done. I can't imagine the labor and expense that went into that job. And it was totally unexpected when he bought the boat.

My rust I can see and deal with. But, I am not a boat proud type of person and don't mind some of the cosmetic issues that drive some people.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

For several reasons. One is that people are unaware of the huge advantages of steel, and the tremendous punishment they can survive and sail away from, due to misinformation shoveled out over the last 50 years by peddlars of fibreglas boats. People simply don't understand that a steel boat can survive collisions with freighters, and the peace of mind underway on a dark night, which that gives one.
Another reason is that traditional steel boatbuilding methods take 1000 hours just to get a hull and deck together, something that my methods have reduced to 100 hours , or less.
Yet another is that traditional , outdated building methods have often resulted in boats which need a lot of filler to look good and fair, something my methods have eliminated.
Another is the myth that it takes a lot of experience and quialifications to build a steel boat, something my methods, and the many well built boats out there, built by backyard amateurs, and far better boats than many commercially built boats, have disproven time and time again.
Another is the myth that there is a lot of mainenance to keep up a steel boat. While there may be more maintenance than a fibreglas boat which spends it's life in a marina slip, the fact that nothing ever breaks or works loose when it's welded down, leaks don't develop under deck fittings and elsewhere, etc .When doing serious offshore cruising ,the time thus saved is far more than you would spend maintaining a fibreglass boat in the same conditions.
Modern epoxies, and trimming all outside corners on a steel boat with stainless, have reduced the maintenance on my 25 year old 31 footer, to an hour or two a year. Except for the odd place i've chipped it, the original paint is as good as the day I put it on 25 years ago.
Another is people don't understand that if your metal hatch, on a metal boat is locked form the inside, anyone trying to board you in the night would need several hours of serious work with some power tools and a source of juice to run them, just to get inside .
When people give advice on steel boats , ask them how many steel boats they have cruised offshore in.
Any small offshore boat which is lived in for many years ,is heavy.

Brent,
you keep up this type of information spreading and you'll get yourself into heaps of trouble someday..
This isnt the post to go into the pros and cons of metal boat but I will tell you and all reading this..
I spent 20 years of my life as a certified welder of exocit metals and another 20 years as a certified welding inspector with a degree in metallurgy.. Your ideas of building a steel boat in your backyard are suiside..
I doubt if 10% of those that are reading you post know that welding steel requires controled tempetures and pre-heating measures as well as cooling perameters for a weld to be of the same quality as the material around the weld..
Not just the welding, but the steel itself, the different types, the silcone content and carbon factors of the product used..
And not known to many, steel has a grain as the way it was produced and if the grain is welded aposed to each other, when the product grows and shrinks due to tempeture if the grain of the material is NOT layed up in the proper manner, the boat when subjected to cold and hot tempetures will infact tear itself apart..
Now you can say any person can build your boat in their back yard.. and yes, they can, but they dont just issue out certifications to just anyone for welding.. you have to know what you're doing...
and they're not just given out, you hve to have the experance to back it..
So your boats may float, and I'm not knocking your designs.. but welding is something left to the pros.. and you know that..

[clockwork orange]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

Hunter better than Catalina? You've got to be kidding!
regards,

John,we are talking old inexpensive seaworthy boats here,the guy has a low budget so please erase the newer ones from your mind,yes the CHERUBINI designed hunters are better than the Catalinas OF THAT VINTAGE for the purpose,in fact they are good under appreciated boats,period.We are NOT talking about those newer ones with no sea berths and the roll bar.
Steve

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

John,we are talking old inexpensive seaworthy boats here,the guy has a low budget so please erase the newer ones from your mind,yes the CHERUBINI designed hunters are better than the Catalinas OF THAT VINTAGE for the purpose,in fact they are good under appreciated boats,period.We are NOT talking about those newer ones with no sea berths and the roll bar.
Steve

Cheers Mate.... a sense of perspective is out there....

Brent I've sailed steel boats and anything under 35ft in my experience is usually slow due to the extra weight of construction material.... live aboard extras make it slower still...one 30ft boat I delivered from Agua Dulce, Spain to UK had been so over canvassed in an attempt to compensate that it was almost unmanageable.... ended up motor sailing with 1/2 reefed main all the way....
Actually that's probably why I got the job... he and others were to scared to do it ......

[armed&hammered]

Whats everyone thoughts on a C&C 27? Im looking at purchasing one (1975), a little more expensive the his budget... Iv had some feed back saying there well made and what not, anything I should know?
Not completely on topic but might also be a boat to consider.

[boatman61]

Also heard Tartan 27's have a good track record.... and cheap...
Any opinions....

[eyschulman]

Its hard to say what defines a blue water boat. Some good boats in the wrong hands will founder while many poor boats will make long passages without incident. The skipper and crews ability and knowlege come first. Even when we talk about a STRONG SAFE boat there is considerable disagreement on deffining that -do we mean thick hulled and heavy or light and high tech.? Do we want small sail plans with sail to diplacement ratios of 14-15 or big sail plans for fast passages. Is a J/44 a good blue water boat? It was designed as an open ocean racer. Many would line up on either side.At one time almost all multi hulls were considered poor Water boats">blue water boats (as an early proponent of the multi I know I was there). Many of the early multis were poor boats but the consept and technology has developed. still there are those who would not cross an ocean on a multi. From my personal experience and Coast Guard duty in the north atlantic I would advise a strong well concieved rudder small strong windows with covers and hatches-good strong rigging fixed and running-storm sais and storm anchor and droges. And know how and when to use them.

[SkiprJohn]

Back at ya Steve,
I'm thinking 27 and 30 feet. Old Catalinas vs old Hunters in the same size range.
regards,

[Brent Swain]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Brent,
you keep up this type of information spreading and you'll get yourself into heaps of trouble someday..
This isnt the post to go into the pros and cons of metal boat but I will tell you and all reading this..
I spent 20 years of my life as a certified welder of exocit metals and another 20 years as a certified welding inspector with a degree in metallurgy.. Your ideas of building a steel boat in your backyard are suiside..
I doubt if 10% of those that are reading you post know that welding steel requires controled tempetures and pre-heating measures as well as cooling perameters for a weld to be of the same quality as the material around the weld..
Not just the welding, but the steel itself, the different types, the silcone content and carbon factors of the product used..
And not known to many, steel has a grain as the way it was produced and if the grain is welded aposed to each other, when the product grows and shrinks due to tempeture if the grain of the material is NOT layed up in the proper manner, the boat when subjected to cold and hot tempetures will infact tear itself apart..
Now you can say any person can build your boat in their back yard.. and yes, they can, but they dont just issue out certifications to just anyone for welding.. you have to know what you're doing...
and they're not just given out, you hve to have the experance to back it..
So your boats may float, and I'm not knocking your designs.. but welding is something left to the pros.. and you know that..

Man what a crock of totall bulshit. Welders like to use such ******** to put themselves on a home made pedestal, like snake oil salesmen. You can take a sledgehamer to any part of a backyard steel hull without holing it, then try the same on a fibreglass or wood hull and make the comparison.

[cburger]

Wow Randyonr3 & Brent Swain watching your two huge egos battle it out is so awsome! I've got to run to the microwave to get my popcorn, hope I don't miss anything in this epic battle of who is the most experienced mariner.

[sageofsalem]

I was union steward on 40 miles of 42" high pressure gas pipeline put in by Rivers Co. back in the early 70's. Those "baldknobbers" with the polka-dot hats welded uphill and downhill and every which way, in all kinds of weather. The only thing they seemed to really need was to block the wind and they would preheat with a torch sometimes. Not finnicky, those boys, not a chance! Think of the criticality of high-pressure gas pipe. There was none of this "primma-donna" " I've got to have everything absolutely perfect before I can weld, with those "good old boys."

Unless you have a boat made of "Tri-ten" steel (used in some crane booms which I used to operate, which , when broken,were welded according to factory spec, out of a basket, sometime six hundred feet in the air) I don't think you have to approach it like it was a cosmic mystery or something.