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Yachts66 · 02-07-2010, 19:32

I don't like OSFO, but that is not to say it isn't a good product. All it is is a phosphoric acid compound. I've tried it, I didn't like it. Maybe you would. You would have to see for yourself. It's not for me.

Thomas

Yachts66 · 02-07-2010, 19:35

There is yet another one out there called POR 15 that some folks seem to really like. I have not tried it though. I like Ameron products, so I tend to go with them. They also offer excellent technical support and advice.

Thomas

SaltyMonkey · 02-07-2010, 19:47

Very good. More options for best practices in the record here so others down the road can learn from it as well!

**Boracay** · 02-07-2010, 20:10

I don't know how much it costs to have a professional measure plate thickness or how much expertise is involved but buying a gauge may not be that different in price.

Time TT100

If I were that worried about plate thickness I'd consider buying one.

Yachts66 · 03-07-2010, 00:26

WOW Boracay, those are the cheapest I've seen....but.....I fear they are the type which will not work through coatings. So I sent an email to them to find out. I'll let you know.

Thanks,

Thomas

Outlawed · 03-07-2010, 04:42

all these are good sugestions. I said my part because i have worked on towboats for some time after I seperated from the Army. I have seen steel boats painted and preped so many diff ways. But i Do know when you mix diff metals ie. steel with alum. coating it has its draw backs. diff metals do not mix esp. steel and alum. The alum oxidizes way faster than steel esp in salt water and no matter how you coat it or prep it or whatever you do the end result is the same.some people have probs with osfo because they dont know how to use it properly.Its like using a brightener or de-oxidizer for aluminum. If you leave it on there long it will dissolve the metal. you leave OSFO on for about 24 hrs and then you buff it with a high speed grinder with a wire wheel and then you put steel seal on it.The OSFO will turn white in color.After this you put steel seal on it then primer.This is simular to putting chromate on alum. like on aircraft. Chromate is like the same to steel seal.The steel boats I have worked on were working boats with alot of abuse and wear on them.We painted once a year sometimes twice.The older boats i have worked on seemed to do the best.Some of these boats were hulled in the 40's and up.The boat i work on now was hulled in 1952 and the power plants are 16 cyl. EMD's w/falk gear boxes from a diesel/electric submarine.I am giving you advise from my exp. with working boats but it still applies the same.My exp and knowledge of steel hulled boats are mostly in working boats that are abused and beat up on a daily basis.Putting multi coats of steel seal,primer and paint help but the water always wins.Just my part and my opinion.

SaltyMonkey · 03-07-2010, 06:59

Outlawed - thanks for your opinion and experience. It's good to get all of this down so we can somehow come up with a good practice from all the advice here. And leaves everyone with best options based on the discussion.

haidan · 03-07-2010, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yachts66

I think the going rate for trades people is more a function of locality than anything else haidan. If you're in the right part of Oregon experienced welders can be had for $15 an hour or even less. Also, our dear leader has created some government programs whereby you can pick up experienced welders for as little as $12 an hour and dear leader even pays all the employment taxes etc. So, there are deals out there if you know where to look.

I've read the hull only constitutes 20% of the cost of a boat, so all these numbers need to be looked at in that perspective. Even a small marine diesel and gear will set you back close to $15k (Thinking 75hp Yanmar here) and if you get anything but a fixed prop another $3.5k for that and we haven't even mentioned thrust bearings, cutlass bearings, shaft bearings, CV joints, etc and the labor to install it all.

Regards,

Thomas

Well that's one way of doing it, there are cheaper ways of course, for me it was used engine 1500, rebuilt gearbox 500, used prop 70, shaft form the scrap yard 30? oillite bushing for a cutlass bearing 7, with the skeg cooling and dry exhaust no need for heat exchanger, install it yourself though I had to get a couple things machined for about 500 but that's still under 3 grand.
I got a quote a few months ago for a 55hp new isusu with an oversized gearbox for 11k, which is well enough to power my boat, have a 20hp now and it does just fine.

haidan · 03-07-2010, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yachts66

As Brent pointed out and as I pointed out many posts back, the proper way to build a steel boat is to start with bright metal and start laying on a good epoxy paint. I really like Ameron products. Ameron 235 is the old standby in the marine industry. Ameron 240 is I think intended to phase out 235, but I may be wrong on that. In any case, it cost more, but it's also approved for tanks. It makes a lot of sense to paint the inside of a steel diesel tank and that would be the product to use. If when building a boat you start with steel that's pre-blasted and primed (weldable primer) you don't need to sand blast the hull. If you don't use the pre-primed and blasted paint, you do. Steel purchased this way is usually not actually sand blasted, it's done with a mechanical abrasive process, but the end result is the same. Sand blasting is very messy and very expensive and increasingly ever more regulated because the blasting medium can be toxic. Which is why I think a person is much better off starting with pre-primed steel. You can get a small sand blasting unit at Harbor freight for touching up small areas which I think is the way to go.

Thomas

One thing to consider with paint is how easy it is to apply, I'm a big fan of coal tar epoxy, it's cheap, seems to work really well (most paints do work quite well) but it can be applied in less than ideal conditions and you can make it cure fasty if you need to beat a a tide, I don't mean for the initial coating but for later touch ups and re-paints plus it's a two part paint so you can keep a can of it for a long long time to do touch ups as things get chipped and scratched, just take a bit out of the can and mix the curing agent in.

Yachts66 · 03-07-2010, 13:40

235/240 can be sprayed, brushed or rolled, a lot of folks like to roll and tip. The one thing you have to be careful of is the fumes. They are not only very volatile, but hard on your body. A very good respirator is a must when using these products and so is sparkless ventilation.

Regards,

Thomas

Outlawed · 03-07-2010, 16:20

I have enjoyed reading this thread and I have learned alot from it and will try to apply some of these techniques to my trade.Thank you guys for inputs on this topic.Me and a friend are going to be purchasing a 50'+ sailboat soon and we have hashed over this for hours.so our battle of steel or glass rages on..hehe...I argue for the steel because of my exp. with this and he argues for glass because of his exp. only with glass.My only good exp. with a glass boat was with a grady-white I used to own and it was a tuffy.Loved it.But I argue for safety reasons and the obvious strength of steel since we plan to use this sailboat for charter purposes.Now my turn to ask a question from you steel sailboat Captains.Whats your opinion on this and what is your opinions on steel versus glass.I hope to hear from Captains who have had both types. Thanks and keep the keel down.My apologies if this is not the right place to post this since it is a response and a question.

**Boracay** · 03-07-2010, 17:14

From my perspective steel is King if you want a big (40'+) boat and it's going to be used commercially.

I'd suggest buying a boat that has already been surveyed and used commercially in your area if you can, or as close as possible.

You will need to talk to local government accredited surveyors first.

Yachts66 · 03-07-2010, 21:54

Personally, I avoid the government whenever possible. When has the government ever made the right choice for our lives?

As for the wonderful debate of steel vs glass boats, oh my! I've owned both. Actually, I've owned two glass sail boats and only one steel, (we're talking ocean crossing sized boats here, not ski boats, canoes, etc.) but to me, the argument is a non-argument. Steel of course, but that's me. No boat building medium is perfect. When it comes to boats, everything is a compromise, including what material you make the boat out of. My good buddy Captain Buddy of the sailing catamaran Indigo Moon is found of saying, "it's all good." I agree, it is all good, whether your boat is steel or glass, wood or concrete, it's all good. Until you hit a rock, a dead head, a container, a whale get's his dander up at you, or any other number of adverse things that can happen while plying the oceans of the world. In that eventuality, it's not all good and far and away the medium of choice is steel. No other boat building material will give you the same measure of safety as steel.

So, why are so darn many boats made of glass? I mean, really, what's the deal here? Why is glass so popular? Just look at YachtWorld! Far and away the majority of boats for sale there are made of glass. When I say glass, I'm including all molded boats made of fiberglass, GRP, Carbon Fiber, etc. If you did a statistical analysis, far and away the most common material would be glass for boats manufactured after 1960. So, doesn't that tend to indicate glass is the World's preferred medium for boat building? Sure it does. Does that mean glass boats are therefore superior? Of course it doesn't. It means that the people who make boats can mass produce them at a lower coast than any other medium. That's all it means.

Want to make a thousand boats and your fortune in the process? Invest in building a very good mold and from that mold you can turn out thousands of identical boats! (Yes I know molds don't really last forever, but for the sake of this missive we'll assume they do.) Glass boats lend themselves to mass manufacturing techniques unlike any other boat building material. The molded hull produced, once cured, can be easily fitted with mass produced joinery, electrical harnessing, plumbing, mechanicals etc.; then the deck can be molded and joined to the hull the whole thing glued, screwed and maybe even bolted together for a finished boat ready to ship to the dealer nearest you. Shazam, such a deal.

Traditional wood boats are built one hand fitted piece of wood at a time, cold molded plywood boats are fitted over the mold, but still very labor intensive to build, metal boats are built somewhat like wood (except for some which take advantage of the CAD/CAM process which does save a lot of labor, but is still a matter of fitting and assembling thousands of pieces and then hand welding them. The Origami process surely simplifies making the hull, but the interior and everything else is still a one off labor intensive process. So, no matter how you look at it, glass boats lend themselves to mass production better than any other material and thus we have mostly glass boats.

Glass boats leak. We didn't know that at first, hence the blistering problem; the water logged balsa core problem; the non-closed cell foam core problem; etc. Epoxy based water barrier coatings have largely solved this problem, we think. Glass boats are petroleum based products, so when the price of oil goes up so does the cost of materials. Glass boats used to be sold as "maintenance free" or nearly so, but, well, that turned out to be so much marketing hype. Glass boats sink (very quickly) when they hit hard objects in the ocean. Fortunately, that doesn't happen often, but it does happen virtually every year, still glass boats out sell metal boats hundreds to one maybe thousands to one, I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm confident they are huge. Because something sells better does not make it a better product. I mean just look at all the GM vehicles out there!

LOL (Sorry couldn't resist.)

On those very dark, moonless nights, when I'm out to sea, when I can barely see my hand in front of my face, much less what's off the bow of my boat; on those nights, I want my ride to be steel. You? It's all good, chose the ride that suits you best. For me, that ride will be a steel one.

Regards,

Thomas

SaltyMonkey · 04-07-2010, 08:32

I've built woodies and owned/fixed glassies on and off since I was 6 years old. I've crewed in countless and owned only about 10. I've never owned a steelie, which is why I started this thread.

There are some $$$ advantages in cold-molding woodies including Buehler BB, but I will skip over this and just list glassies:

Advantages
- More models to choose in the market
- Easier to get model information from owners and manufacturer sites.
- Somewhat easier to get supplies that fit and work.
- Newer designs and materials have improved structural integrity.
- Resale value on a good design.

Disadvantages
- Messy epoxies are a headache to mix properly and can take considerable time to cure sometimes weeks!
- Rotted cores and de-lamination.
- Cracking and brazing
- Mounting hardware through the hull and deck destroys water tightness and introduces structural issues. This also makes it difficult to paint the deck because all that crap needs to come off.

Steelies:

Advantages
- Hardware can be easier to mount - weld and go.
- Welding is easy to learn and is clean and stronger than thru deck mounts.
- No holes in deck for hardware. Water tightness in deck AND below deck (easier to make water tight bulkheads).
- Strength and elasticity - the ultimate "bendieboat"
- Materials relatively easy to find and cheaper these days than petroleum based products.
- Larger and more livable interiors (can be made larger by chines etc which removes necessity for bulkheads and frames).
- Can be built rather quickly if you have the space.
- Designs and boats tend to be "maritime professional" in quality meaning builder/owners tend to be practical and know what works and what doesn't in an ocean environment.
- Cooler below deck. Glassies catch the sun and heat up quickly inside.

Disadvantages
- Few on market
- One off designs and few similar owners.
- Costly and not easy to survey used boats and surveyors are rare.
- Rust demands quick attention to prevent destruction of materials.
- Careful and extensive labourious application of epoxies, paints, foams etc
- Mounting new hardware takes careful prep below else you will start a fire
- Mounting new hardware will require painting area that may not match. =)
- Electrolysis - careful! SS, Alum, Steel
- Steel is best used only on boats over 35' long due to weight.
- Sailability may not be as good as a glassie.
- Leave your boat overnight in another country and she may be stripped bare for the metal =)

Outside of framework, there is no advantage or disadvantage to steelie or glassie in terms of interior manufacturing. Both must be done by hand - even today e.g. Beneteau

As you know I am moving toward steelies. I still look around for glassies due the choices of design, the number on market, and availability, but steelies just feel good all around and now that I am a "master" of welding, I feel they are easier to maintain cleanly and quickly on the road.

millstb · 04-07-2010, 11:50

Thomas, SaltMonkey, outlawed, haidan....
Thanks for all your hlpful insights into the world of steel. I knew what I wanted, and the discussions contained in this thread answered most of the difficult questions.
Here's what I got for $34K: Of course pendinbg survey and sea trials. Hope the pictures show up
2003 Roberts 38 off shore
LOA: 38'2"
Beam: 11'4"
LWL: 30'6"
Maximum Draft: 6'5"
Displacement: 30,000 lbs. (approx.)
Ballast: 8,000 lbs.
Bridge Clearance: 52'

Engines
Engine Brand: Sabb
Engine(s) HP: 22
Engine Model: 2GZ
Cruising Speed: 5 kts. @ 1,000
Engine Hours: 1500

Tanks
Fresh Water Tanks: 89 US gal. (SS)
Fuel Tanks: 50 US gal. (black iron)
Holding Tanks: 25 US gal. (SS)

Accommodations
A spacious, bright interior, with light, well-executed joinery throughout. The forward stateroom has a large vee berth, with lots of storage in lockers, bins and drawers. The head is to port, and more storage to starboard. The salon features an L-shaped settee to port and single settee to starboard, with a large folding table midship. The galley is to port, the nav station to starboard. There's a spacious quarterberth to starboard and storage to port.

Galley

REFRIGERATION: Glacier Bay Mark II
WATER HEATER: Isotemp SS 4-gal.
STOVE: Force 10 SS three-burner with oven (LPG)

SINK: Double SS
WATER SYSTEM: Pressure H-C, manual

Electronics

HF RADIO-Ham/SSB: Icom IC-M700 Pro with Pactor PTCII Pro modem
SSB TUNER: Icom AT-130
STEREO: Sony AM/FM, Sony CDX454RF 10-disc changer
TV/DVD/VCR: Phillips
RADAR: Furuno 1712 2.2kW
DEPTH SOUNDER/SONAR: Raymarine ST-60

VHF: (1) Icom IC-M127
WIND SPEED & DIRECTION: Raymarine ST-60
AUTO PILOT: Simrad TP30
KNOT METER/LOG: Raymarine ST-60
GPS: Garmin GPSMap 182C
COMPASS: Ritchie YB-600

Electrical
ELECTRICAL SYSTEM: 12vDC/120vAC

BATTERIES: (5) Life Line AGM 105-amp hour (4-house, 1-engine start)
TOTAL AMP HOURS: 525
SMART REGULATOR: Heart Interface Link 1000
BATTERY PARALLEL SWITCH: (2)
SOLAR PANELS: (1) 75-watt with ACS sequencing regulator
BATTERY MONITOR: Heart Interface Link 1000

DOCKSIDE CABLE: 50' 30-amp
INVERTER/ BATTERY CHARGER: Freedom 10
INTERIOR LIGHTING: 12vDC incandescent, fluorescent, LED
ALTERNATOR: (1) Balmar 160-amp, Balmar MC-612 smart regulator

Sails & Rigging

SAILS: Main, Jib, 135% Genoa, Staysail, Storm Jib, Yankee
PRIMARY SAILMAKER: Pineapple, North Sails
BOOM VANG: Selden Rodkicker
MAST: Custom Ballenger Spars 45' double-spreader (aluminum), deck stepped with compression post
STANDING RIGGING: SS wire
MAINSHEET TRAVELER: Harken Big Boat

LINES LED AFT: Yes
ROLLER FURLING: Hood Sea Furl 5
SPINNAKER POLE: (2) Forespar with mast-mount storage system
WINCHES: All Anderson 2-spd. ST; (2) #52, (2) #46, (5) #40, (1) #28
OTHER: Twin back stays, one with HF insulators; deck hardware from Micro Fico, Harken, Wichard and Schaefer

Deck & Ground Tackle

ANCHORS: (1) 45# CQR with 300' chain rode, (1) 35# CQR with chain and line rode, (1) 22# Danforth with 10' chain and 150' line rode
TOE RAILS: Steel
LADDER: (2) SS swivel-type swim
BOW PULPIT: SS
ANCHOR WINDLASS: Muir Hercules manual
ANCHOR DAVIT/ROLLER: Custom double
LIGHTS: Deckmount nav, LED masthead tri-color, deck

DECK WASHDOWN: Freshwater/saltwater
COVERS & CURTAINS: Dodger, bimini/cockpit awning with side enclosures
LIFELINES & STANCHIONS: SS wire on SS stanchions
DECK MATERIAL: Steel with nonskid overlay
GATES: P&S
OTHER: SS mast pulpit, custom mast-launch bridle for dinghy, outboard hoist and stern storage mount, bug screens for all ports