Steel Boats and Welding

[ConradG]

What reason would you use tig for heavy material? If you want strong there is no better penatration than mig if you are spraying. But, as you have pointed out before, the welds SHOULD be plenty strong enough so why choose a slow and expensive method?

Break some welds on stainless. All stainless alloys are complex and you will find that they disturb when subjected to welding heat. They will break just beyond the heat zone almost like high carbon steel. And as far as I know salt water holds less oxygen and the mud certainly doesn't help...what about your chain" will you make it from stainless? If not, good luck trying to keep your electrons in place when the stainless is doing it's thing. Stainless is way away from mild steel on the galvanic scale and certainly shouldn't be used in contact with it in an electrolite (salt water) IMHO.

Mine are 1 1/4 round stock and 1 inch plate gussets for the shaft, over six inches wide at the junction to the tapering 4 inch wide bottom bar (also from 1 inch plate) to which the 3/4 inch flukes are welded as well as the 1 inch cross bar (yes, at the bottom, oh, and an eye for a tag line to heave the end on deck when at the cathead). I am not to concerned about a little rust....or strength (the chain will break far before the multiple pass 1 inch fillet of weld will).....but laying in multiple passes relatively quickly and inexpensively is the goal. If I forge the tapers I can save a ton of time, cutting and grinding. Oxy acet, grinding discs welding gas and wire for the mig or more expensive gas and expendables for the tig all add up fast. Sticks are cheap, fast and in my experience better suited for the job. If I stocked straight Co2 for the mig I might consider it but I use argon mix because my mig is used primarily for situations where clean and/or extra strong welds are esential and for thin stuff and aluminum. For most heavy stuff it's breathing smoke from burning sticks for me. Far less expensive.

[Yachts66]

The little monkey has had a 2 hour MIG class, so he's an expert on welding now....at least in his own eyes.

I agree, low carbon mild steel is the way to go. Paint or galvanize as you please. Weight is important in most anchor designs. I still like the Manson or the Rocna. I haven't used either, but folks I know who have really seem to like them. I think there's several threads that covers the relative merits of both quite thoroughly here.

Regards,

Thomas

[SaltyMonkey]

That's why I'm TIGGING baby. I'll have better control over the heating process on that stainless than your sticky-micky, or MIG so SaltyMonkey wont get beading. For GTAW, it's only 40 $ a half tank for straight argon or argon/helium mix, so whats the expense? Half the sticky machines can be used as TIG anyway. Two for one special. MY welds will be extra smooth, like a SaltyMonkeys bottom.

SaltyMonkey had a great 16 hours and got enough fun-damentals to be dangerous. Never underestimate a SaltyMonkey's fortitude to cause considerable creative results at your mental expense.

But, I still think your anchors will rot in the tropics, or for your case 66, on the Columbia River if you don't go somewhere this summer!

[ConradG]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

But, I still think your anchors will rot in the tropics, or for your case 66, on the Columbia River if you don't go somewhere this summer!

not as fast as your chain if you use stainless for your anchor... and do you know what else that stainless anchor will be attatched to and robbing electrons from via the chain? Your steel hull!!

The $40 for the gas is just the start, Ceramic shields, tungsten tips, constantly having to stop and grind the tips, the painfully slow speed, the rods, the extra bright flash...Don't get me wrong, tig is great but it has it's place.

So does stainless...and it isn't with contact to mild steel or for use under water...

[SaltyMonkey]

Fine, I'm going for Bisalloy 80 for my anchor, and just to be sure since you made ol' SaltyMonkey scared I'll use a galv shackle and tail off a monster zinc on the line.

[bangkaboat]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Don't bitch to me Bangkaboat~!

I'll be sure to tell my instructor who has 30 years PGE and their senior instruction, is an American Welding Society (AWS) Certified Welding Inspector, Certified Welding Educator, and is certified in all positions in the MIG and Arc welding. And who has highlighted for me very strongly that a weld can look absolutely great on the outside, but no one can tell just looking at it - not even the best. The only way you can really tell is by xray or $onigraph - which very few do.

What you have said above is very different to your assertion that weld quality is subjective and others shouldn't be so concerned with it. I wish you the best of luck in building whatever boat you decide to, but I strongly suggest that you read the related info. on this & other forums
(metalboatsociety,boatdesign.net,origamiboats,etc. ). A couple of weeks does not a welder make.

[barnakiel]

Yep. Good boats sell well. Bad apples stay on the market, sell, then come back again.

This is why I say you find a good boat, do not bargain - just offer a good price according to the boat's condition and the market.

If you buy a good (?) boat dirt cheap then or the boat is dirt or the ex-owner was in a bad position and you just stubbed the unlucky fella in their back.

b.

[SaltyMonkey]

bangkaboat - pah! For boatbuilding, a couple of weeks does a welder make - thick or thin; large or small. But just don't ask me to weld cross materials - alum to steel; steel to tung. That might take another week.

barnakiel - there are just too many variables to consider whether it's a "bargain" or a "blunder". You have externals such as the current economics, location, season, temperament, and then all those wonderful variables in the boat - those of quality and how much more you would need to spend to outfit/refit, and long term maintenance. Your long term cruising budget ends up dictating a lot of it. Then there is the survey. If the boat is "dirt cheap", I believe anyone would be suspicious and walk away. If it's reasonable, I think it's harder to determine - especially if there are a lot of cruising toys thrown into the deal. No way I would ever pay full asking price unless I desperately need the boat or it was "bristol" - neither of which I have experienced in my life.

[ConradG]

There are many reasons boats can be had on the cheap. With mine the proven design was altered a few owners ago and the owner I bought it from needed to sell. No one wanted to undertake the conversion back to original design but It works for me. It wasn't "dirt" cheap but for less than the price of the basic materials it came in the form of a proffessionally welded hull with interior of the layout and functionality that I desire, new engine and all kinds of other useful and not so useful stuff...Just have to shorten the masts and reweld the fittings, rerig and make new sails...all of which will be great to have done before setting out. There are a few other minor things to do here and there of course, as I know there always will be..... but way ahead in time and money than starting from that pile of raw materials for the same price....

But do look carefully. Especially with steel! My best prospect in steel was what most would consider a real junker because it was 90% gutted already and looked horible. To me it was the best because it was one in which I could blast and paint the interior and get to and cut out/ weld up little pits here and there along the frames and stringers that held a buble or caught some dirt when originally built (and believe me these spots do exhist-a 16th of an inch pit or undercut in 10 guage doesn't look like much but it's half way to failure and actively trying to do so!). Here again, for less than the cost of ordered steel there was a hull welded up. Huge time saver. So the cost in dollars and time have to be weighed for your induvidual needs. If you want to spend your time and money building a boat then go for it! (And there are many reasons why it would be great to do so) But it is possible to save time and money by purchasing used in a market where many people have to sell their toys. The important thing is to know what you are buying.

[SaltyMonkey]

Unfortunately, I have no time to build my own, but if I could or could afford to have a company do it, I would without question. Therefore, I'm for to be looking at used boats on the market.

I'm not under the impression that all used steel boats are rip off awaiting un-educated buyers. But I am leery of real deals - whether they are steel or fiberglass. And I am cautious about home-brews - designs or builds.

The boats I am looking at seem to me well maintained, are outfitted in a way that makes me believe that the owners are professional mariners (one is) or have that attitude, and they know what works and what doesn't. I just don't find that attitude in the glasses I have been watching or seeing. I used to see that in wooden boat owners, but not anymore. As I sit here, I just don't think I would ever feel the same about a glass boat again. Meaning, as much as I look at glasses, and shop around for them, and continue to do so (looking at my best cruiser list) I have a hard time imagining I would own one or choosing one..enough for me to finally take that check book out. However I know at least 3 steel boats up north that I would drop my cash in a minute if I was there ...which is sort of dangerous and why I set some strict survey goals for myself. Now, why is it I just don't feel safe in anything plastic anymore? Why is it steel seems to me to make more beautiful and safe interior spaces?

[ConradG]

Well maintaned ownership is one very important aspect to look for in used steel boats but design and build to enable an adequate job is also. I found none that had complete access to the inside of the hull and after finding little pits in all that I looked at I was determined that access to the interior was needed for me to feel comfortable with used. The integrity of the paint (or foam) is what you are relying on and it needs to be able to be inspected, cleaned and maintained with time. There isn't much "room for corrossion" in most small steel boats. But just because I didn't find any certainly doesn't mean they don't exhist. And catastrophic failure from a pinhole probably isn't going to happen anyway. Perhaps I was being too paranoid. In any case I am happy to be away from the maintenence associated with steel and free from the worries...now just a different set of them with aluminum! (Stay away from marinas, be extra vigilant about electronics and dissimilar metals and don't leave it grinding against the rocks for too long..)

[haidan]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

bangkaboat - pah! For boatbuilding, a couple of weeks does a welder make - thick or thin; large or small. But just don't ask me to weld cross materials - alum to steel; steel to tung. That might take another week.

That is done, it's called explosion welding I think there are some you tube videos of the process....

[ConradG]

Originally Posted by haidan

That is done, it's called explosion welding I think there are some you tube videos of the process....

I saw several steel boats with aluminum cabintops. Very good way to keep the strength of metal without the weight of steel up high and does away with the problems and upkeep of wood...and steel for that matter (Aluminum and mild steel are pretty close on the galvanic scale and pose far less issues than say stainles and either metal).

[haidan]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Pah! Ptui* If it looks good to me its good enuf. I'll be TIGging while you are still playing with your stick.

Go with stainless. The salinity is stronger in the mids and your galvanized doodoo dip won't hold up.

Don't use stainless as others have pointed out there are many problems with stainless anchors, really people have stainless anchor cause they look pretty on the bow, which you would only see at the dock, mines usually buried in the ground most of the time.
The big reason for not usuing scrap stainless is that you need a special tempered shank that won't bend (or if stainless maybe snap)
If your anchor is made from 1/4" - 1" thick stock it'll take a long time to rust out completely. The best way to do it would be to make up a whole bunch of them, shouldn't be too hard to get a group of boat owners to go in on it together, build your anchors and gather up all your chain and take it all to the hot dip galvanizers the more weight there is the cheaper it'll be per pound.
And that galvanized doodoo dip does hold up really well considering you're dragging it across the sand and barnacley rocks for all it's working life.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by haidan

That is done, it's called explosion welding ...

Explosive welding is a solid state welding process, which uses a controlled explosive detonation to force two metals together at high pressure. The resultant composite system is joined with a durable, metallurgical bond ...

... The metals do not commingle, they are atomically bonded. Due to this fact, any metal may be welded to any metal (i.e.- copper to steel; titanium to stainless) ...

Introduction to Explosive Welding ➥ Introduction to Explosive Welding

See also ➥ High Energy Metals, Inc.