Steel Boats and Welding

[SaltyMonkey]

Thanks Vic! Keep me posted on that boat.

I have a small bag of questions here:

* Can anyone challenge Yachts66 advice on painting/epoxy etc? GordMay started some. I don't quite believe everything Yachts66 is posting here quite franky.

* Question regarding stick welding under the use of building an "Origami" - can it be pushed with 110v rather than 220? My limited understand is that stick welding (110 or 220) is not as penetrable for larger thicknesses as MIG, but Brent confirms it's enough for building his boats (maybe not 110).

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Oysters. Speculation and second guessing is BS.

[GordMay]

Because Fire Prevention is a LIFE SAFETY issue, I cannot overstate the importance of referring to reliable sources of information.

I can assure you, that in this regard, Brent Swain has demonstrated no expertise whatsoever.

Standard Latex House Paint (Flat) is NOT a fire stop , barrier, or retardant.

Because conventional architectural paints do not significantly affect the (flame spread or smoke development) rating of the substrate to which they are applied, they will not upgrade a flammable substrate (foam). Special “intumescent” (fire retardant) coatings are designed for this purpose and should be used when such upgrade is
required.

[SaltyMonkey]

Wow GordMay. Now that's what I call making clear statements and outlining specific points, instead of the usual general off the cuff advice.

Thanks

SaltyMonkey

[idpnd]

Let me google that for you.

Interestingly enough, there seems to be lots of fire retardant latex paint around, perhaps it has some special ingredient (other than the latex)?

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by idpnd

... perhaps it has some special ingredient...

Indeed, there may be a little more to it ...

It has nothing to do with the Latex, and everything to do with the intumescence.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Question regarding stick welding under the use of building an "Origami" - can it be pushed with 110v rather than 220? My limited understand is that stick welding (110 or 220) is not as penetrable for larger thicknesses as MIG, but Brent confirms it's enough for building his boats (maybe not 110).

Actually, stick welding is generally the preferred method for really thick metals. Big ships, and big construction projects, are usually done with stick welding.

But not with a 110 volt welder!

Even for household type welding most stick work is done with 220 volt machines. The old standby is the Lincoln "buzz box". That's what I own. It is an AC/DC, 220 volt machine. I have no doubt that I could build a steel boat with it if I wanted to. I have used it on metals up to 3/8" thick myself without getting anywhere near the highest amp settings.

I did have to wire a 220 volt socket into my garage, though. Not especially difficult if you are familiar with AC wiring; shouldn't be terribly expensive to have someone do it for you if you are not.

The 110 volt stick machines that I've seen have all been cheaply made and of very limited use. I certainly would not counsel buying a 110 volt stick machine to build a boat with. The cost of the welder and having your workshop wired will be peanuts in comparison to the total cost of building your boat. Suggest you take a good look at Gord May's signature if you are thinking that going cheap on the welder will be a good idea.

[SaltyMonkey]

The reason I'm asking is because of the availability in yards for 220v.

I saw a miller

Miller - Stick Welders - Maxstar® 150 S

but dont know if any good.

Latex - all I remember is how it peels after a good many years. Can't imagine what implications are in boat w moisture?

[haidan]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Because Fire Prevention is a LIFE SAFETY issue, I cannot overstate the importance of referring to reliable sources of information.

I can assure you, that in this regard, Brent Swain has demonstrated no expertise whatsoever.

Standard Latex House Paint (Flat) is NOT a fire stop , barrier, or retardant.

Because conventional architectural paints do not significantly affect the (flame spread or smoke development) rating of the substrate to which they are applied, they will not upgrade a flammable substrate (foam). Special “intumescent” (fire retardant) coatings are designed for this purpose and should be used when such upgrade is
required.

Well Gord to reassure you about the spray foam being rather inflamable these days, that is the new stuff, the stuff that brent has in his boat being 25ish years old may not be as retardant. I'm told anyway that they are now making the stuff better now.
The day after the sprayfoamers left I was filling in the small gaps that they had missed with a can of foam, I not exactly sure what happened but I think I set off the propellant that was in the air around me with a static charge, I was walking around on the foam with shoes and had a metal can with a plastic straw attached. Anyway I was suddenly surrounded in a fire ball and there was a huge flames leaping up all over where I had filled, there were a few small spots and a somewhat large one that I had filled and all the still curing foam I had just put down lit up. I managed to stamp out all the little fires with my jacket, but couldn't really get all the base of the flames of the big fire, it's flames were about 3 feet high and dark black smoke filling the boat. I had just taken everything out of the boat including my fire extinguisher so I'm really scared at this point as this seemingly uncontrollable fire is reach the roof. I had to climb out of the boat, jump down grab a bucket of water and climb back up and in the boat to douse the flames. But the actual burned section was about 8" wide and was only the fresh stuff out of the can that burnt the other stuff, the stuff that the sprayfoamers put in, was a little melted right around the fire but totally not burned at all. And boy was ever glad that they had made these improvements to the foam in the last two years, cause there was a point were the smoke was building and the fire was rising and I thought the whole inside was going to go up and I'd be lucky if I could get out without being seriously burned, and I'd have to start from scratch again.

And as far as expertise demonstrated by Brent I know he has caught fire to his foam from time to time when welding onto the boat and was watched the fire go out when the foam burns and the layer of paint stays and blocks the fire's access to air and has extinguished it. So if that's not enough expertise so be it, I'm sure if you were to get it hot enough the paint wouldn't do anything but it'll certainly help keep stuff like sparks form igniting anything plus it's really messy after carving back all the foam, there'll be little staticy foam dusties that will never really go away, but once you spray a layer of paint it holds it all down, and trust me I still live in my bare painted foam boat (paneling is a lower priority) and it's a hell of a lot cleaner after painting then it was last summer before the paint, when there were floating foam particles all over no matter how much I vacuumed. Probably the best thing to do (unless you just have lots of money to toss around) would be to throw down a layer of free recycled latex then a layer of fire retardant as the first layer uses a hell of a lot of paint, we're talking a gallon for every 25 square feet or so.

[osirissail]

I think of MIG welding as "production" welding, - fast and simple. I think of TIG welding as "designer" welding. I rebuilt my boat while in Cape Canaveral and hired moon-lighting Space Shuttle welder to do my aluminum welding. They all do only TIG welding. The equipment was borrowed and rented (you need an AC High Freq box for aluminum welding).
- - As with all welding, it really is an "art form" and the individual welder can be crude or elegant depending upon his talent. The "space base" welders are all elegant and the finished welds were baby-bottom smooth and had exactly the proper penetration. I am used to "Sears arc-welding" and Oxy-Acet gas welding iron/steel but when it came to welding aluminum my attempts looked like burnt marshmellows.
- - So unless you are willing to learn properly and also have the talent for welding, hire a talented welder. The last thing you want is for a crystallized/oxidized seam to open up while you are a thousand or so miles from land.

[bangkaboat]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Actually, stick welding is generally the preferred method for really thick metals. Big ships, and big construction projects, are usually done with stick welding.

No! FCAW w/CO2 shielding is what is usually "done" on "Big ships". SMAW("stick") is used for tacking & small welds. Why? FCAW 1.4mm dia. wire is approx. 3x faster than 1/8" 7018. 6010/11 is much slower than 7018 for any given diameter, in all positions but vertical.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

I saw a miller... but dont know if any good.

Miller makes quality welding machines. The one in the link looks pretty good. At $941 base price it darned well ought to be good! My Lincoln buzz box cost me $298 at Home Depot when I bought it 12 years ago.

My math tells me that it would need a 30 amp, 115 volt circuit to run at full capacity. Most "normal" household circuits are 15 amps. You probably have a couple of 20 amp circuits in your kitchen. You might have a 30 amp circuit in your laundry room. I added two 30 amp circuits in my garage, along with a 50 amp, 220 volt circuit.

If you're working in a yard, though, my guess is that you will have no problem getting a 220 volt circuit. I've never checked that out before, but I would be surprised if they don't use 220 for a lot of their work. Besides the fact that most industrial quality welders require 220, the same is true for the majority of industrial quality power tools of all sorts. In a heavy-duty, professional workshop you will usually find 220 powering the saws, drill presses, compressors, and pretty much everything else!

[denverd0n]

1/8" 7018? I'm talking about when the "stick" is up in the 1/2-3/4" range!

Now, I'll confess, I've never done any ship building. My uncle used to, though. He did retire from that more than 20 years ago, so maybe things have changed since then.

In any case, the idea that stick welding is somehow not up to the task of welding metal as thick as MIG processes can handle is simply not the case.

[haidan]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Yachts66: Thanks for your comments. It's good to get a record here of all this. My head is spinning. You're absolutely right about the epoxy/layer/paint, and it answers a question that I was thinking about but neglecting to ask folks here.

I've been thinking a lot these last few days on building a custom steel boat. I just wish there were more resources here to do it. I feel it's probably easier to build it up north where you are - the talent and perhaps resources (steel etc). Unfortunately, I don't know any builders up there, and I'd be a bit distrustful to hire someone to work in that regard - cost overruns and nickel/dimed - if I farmed out the work. Would be great if I could order a Swain 33 or 36 and just outfit her to my needs.

Well, one thing I am going to look forward to anyway, and that's the intensive welding class I am taking shortly. Hopefully, I wont screw up.

I have a small bag of questions here:

* Can anyone challenge Yachts66 advice on painting/epoxy etc? GordMay started some. I don't quite believe everything Yachts66 is posting here quite franky.

* Question regarding stick welding under the use of building an "Origami" - can it be pushed with 110v rather than 220? My limited understand is that stick welding (110 or 220) is not as penetrable for larger thicknesses as MIG, but Brent confirms it's enough for building his boats (maybe not 110).

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Oysters. Speculation and second guessing is BS.[/QUOTE]

The folks from that MOM website found that the most ideal place for them to build was on Vancouver Island, even though they lived in Utah. Some big reasons being, Brent and Even live here and apparently it's very hard to get wheel abraded and shop primed steel down there for a reasonable price. Though if one were to have property nearer to the ocean this might be a different story.

Ok, technically it wouldn't really matter if it's 110v or 220v however 110v outlets that 110v welders plug into are 15amp breakers so the most you're going to get out it is 1500 watts which is why most (myself included) people would say that 110v stick welders are not suited for welding a whole boat up, 110v welders are generally pretty light duty, hobby welders they don't, at least the ones I seen have the duty cycle you'd need. duty cycle is the ratio of the amount of time you can weld to the amount of time you'd have to leave the machine cool down.

140 amp 220 welder like this one:
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/va...784272166.html
would be all you would need to build a Brent boat which except for the keel shoe are 1/4, 3/16 and 1/8 steel. I'd get a DC one if you're going to get a stick welder they're much nicer and not really that much more expense. I know of several boat builders that by the end of the boat end up with several welders, I know of one that has I think 7 welders, 2 metal lathes, 4 drill presses.... Just buy a used one and chances are you can always sell it for what you payed for it.

Stick welding is known for it's penetration, that's the beauty of it, it's simple use a rod that is close to the same thickness as the material welded and the amp setting if too hot will just burn holes in you're work and if too low, the rod will stick like crazy. You could train a monkey to do it. They use stick welding to seal pipelines and such, and there are reasons why, mainly because it's in less than ideal conditions that they do the welding (just like backyard boat building) and the welds are strong even though some of those pipelines have wall thickness that are anywhere between 1" to 10" (like that one in the gulf that blew).

I see no problem with what yacht66 says though I like coal tar epoxy the best as a paint it's cheap and again easy to apply in less than ideal conditions. I have no idea about the paint yacht66 recomended, they all seem to work pretty well when applied properly, and some are easier than others in this respect. I used some ceramic insulating micro-spheres in the final layer of paint on the inside of my boat, don't really have anything to say about them except they were quite cheap and are SUPPOSED TO help insulate, kinda hard to tell though since I've got foam as well. Though when once trying to cut though a section that had been painted with this stuff with a torch it would not preheat and form a puddle it just spread the heat out and burned the paint.

Welding in a stainless pad on the bow to protect from the anchor and a nice long chunk of flat bar all the way down past the water line can't hurt. Too bad the builder didn't do it on your boat, probably should have brought mine down further than I did, I'll add it to the list...

With the origami technique I don't think there is much point in the added expense of pre cut plates`, one could easily do all the cutting for a hull in a day or so. Plasma cutters are really nice especially for stainless but are pretty expensive plus you need an air compressor as well, but you could get one then sell it once you're done, or rent one.

(And as a side note. I believe it does say on the first page of Brent book that if you lend it out you'll never see it again)

A few months after putting the boat in the water I smashed into a rock at about 4-5 knots under sail, the boat stopped and I actually got thrown against the cabin back, put a fist sized dent in the hull (big fist) any other material and it would have been a major thing as it was I opened the hatch saw no water coming in, let out the sails (twin keels are shallower when not heeled over) and scudded over the rock and kept sailing, dent's still there, had to put some paint on it but the boat was fine. There are a lot of rocks around here.

[haidan]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Miller makes quality welding machines. The one in the link looks pretty good. At $941 base price it darned well ought to be good! My Lincoln buzz box cost me $298 at Home Depot when I bought it 12 years ago.

My math tells me that it would need a 30 amp, 115 volt circuit to run at full capacity. Most "normal" household circuits are 15 amps. You probably have a couple of 20 amp circuits in your kitchen. You might have a 30 amp circuit in your laundry room. I added two 30 amp circuits in my garage, along with a 50 amp, 220 volt circuit.

If you're working in a yard, though, my guess is that you will have no problem getting a 220 volt circuit. I've never checked that out before, but I would be surprised if they don't use 220 for a lot of their work. Besides the fact that most industrial quality welders require 220, the same is true for the majority of industrial quality power tools of all sorts. In a heavy-duty, professional workshop you will usually find 220 powering the saws, drill presses, compressors, and pretty much everything else!

You can also plug a 220v welder into two seperate 110v 30amp outlets, I did it for a job a month ago and had no problems.

[Vic de Beer]

Hi,
Short of giving you a course in basic welding, suffice to say that welding can be done by a 110 volt machine just as well as with a 220v or 380volt. Welding machines are merely a step-down transformer that drops the voltage down to a range of 22-28volt, but increases tha amperage to a workable level .... for thinner wire or stick, in a range of 90 amp to as much as 180 amp. The only difference with the 110 or 220/380 volt machines are that you have more range. Look at website: www.fezela.weebly.com/home.html.
This website covers the refit of sailboat Fezela, one of 2 boats that was build by myself and a very good friend (1979). We build 2 boats side-by-side and both were sold in divorce settlements...groan. My old boat is undergoing a refit in the UK. Both huls are still perfectly sound and in excelent shape.