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Old 18-10-2019, 22:37   #91
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
I've said this before, I was terrified of inmast furlers.......until I had one.
This is fair comment too. All of the reefing options have their own issues and idiosyncrasies, all of which can be mitigated to varying degrees by correct understanding and correct use by the operator.

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Old 19-10-2019, 01:45   #92
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

Haddock1,

IN-BOOM FURLING is by far the BEST Roller Furling System available. Ask about anyone, they will tell you to go to IN-BOOM FURLING. As one grows older, and I pray that you do, the safety of the Cockpit comes to be the Safe Place you want to be, especially in a storm.

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Old 19-10-2019, 04:14   #93
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

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Originally Posted by Sailing4Jesus View Post
Haddock1,

IN-BOOM FURLING is by far the BEST Roller Furling System available. Ask about anyone, they will tell you to go to IN-BOOM FURLING. As one grows older, and I pray that you do, the safety of the Cockpit comes to be the Safe Place you want to be, especially in a storm.

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Agreed, but even a Slab Reefing system can be used from the safety of the cockpit too if it is setup correctly.
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Old 19-10-2019, 05:52   #94
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

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Originally Posted by CAVOK View Post
I’ve just done the same soul searching on this subject for a new 46’ boat. In the end I decided on a stack sail with a deep 3rd reef over an inmast furler. My reasoning was I couldn’t take the chance of a jammed furler mid-ocean in a blow, with only 1 or 2 onboard. It really came down to safety over what obviously is the convenience of furling. If in boom furling had been a financial option I would have considered it, not withstanding it probably has some issues too, but at least a jammed furler is not the same safety issue. I hope I’ve made the right decision, as all the above opinions have merit. Good luck with whichever decision you make.
I certainly don't turn down work based on the main sail of a boat. As a result I've sailed a lot of boats with in-mast furling, quite a few with in-boom furling, and many many with slab reefing or some variant. I've down reefing at the mast and in the cockpit. I have some experience here, and opinions based on that experience.

In-mast furling is most prone to failure usually due to the sail folding and getting caught at or just inside the slot. As Snore and others have noted a tired sail is most likely to fail. Too loose a furl will also cause binding. Most in-mast furling systems have no backup so if anything in the mechanism fails (I had the main furling rod shear between the hydraulic drive and the bottom of the track) you're really in trouble. In my experience failures usually occur partway through the evolution which results in the infamous expedient of sending someone aloft with a knife. Regardless you have to have the halyard tension right and you have to balance the furler and the outhaul in operation.

In-boom furling is very fussy about boom angle. If you don't have that right the sail is too tight at one end of the boom and too loose at the other; eventually it binds up. The most common failure is the motor drive - either the motor itself or the gear train. Most booms do have a manual crank as backup but it is usually at the aft end of the boom and may not be reachable, at least not safely. In operation you must have the boom angle right, the outhaul tension right, and balance the furler and the halyard.

Most of us grew up with slab reefing so I won't belabor that. Failure modes stem from the track system more than anything else. Slab reefing is simply the most reliable.

All of the systems are prone to chafe failure: halyards, sheets, and miscellaneous running rigging.

Whether you use an in-mast furler, in-boom furler, or run lines for slab reefing to the cockpit furling WILL take longer than slab reefing at the mast. The longer you spend in a state of transition the more likely that something else will go wrong while you are focused on that transition.

So much for experience. Herewith opinion:

First "it has never happened to me" comes from people without an understanding of statistics and risk management. The latter is important: you consider not only the probability of occurrence but the impact of occurrence. A risk that is likely with the impact of a hangnail does not get the attention of a risk that is unlikely with the impact of going up the mast in heavy weather.

There are a bunch of things that can go wrong with an in-mast furling system and they fall in the category of either "bad" or "really bad." That said, attention to detail every single time can reduce failures considerably. If I do get a fold, I tack back and forth to load the sail on each side alternately and usually can get it out. I much prefer this to sending someone aloft. The biggest risk is a total system failure with a partially furled (even two wraps) main that you simply cannot get down.

In-boom furling is somewhat more prone to failure than in-mast but when something gets stuck you can always drop the main on top of the boom and be done with it. Other than that it is slow and shares track-based failure modes with slab reefing.

Slab reefing fails when something goes wrong with the track or the halyard fails. You can mitigate track failures by regular inspection, cleaning, and lubrication. You can reduce operational complexity by being sure that the fore (if you have them) and aft reefing lines are on the same side of the sail so you don't break a batten and alternating the direction of fall so that the first and third reef are on the same side of the mast as the main running rigging.

I'm not a fan of lines (other than sheets) led to the cockpit. Everything takes longer. The loads quite literally double; see story to follow. Even at my age and in my condition everything is faster at the mast. I see that as a net safety plus. I've also seen owners install all kinds of things (mostly biminis and electronics) that limit part of the grinding circle of winches.

A customer has a beautiful 50 custom catamaran. Electric winches everywhere. One of the owner's concerns (and mine) was that even with no wind the winch used to raise the main struggled the last couple of feet. When the factory techs came to the boat for punch list review and service the owner wasn't available so he sent me to act as his agent. A we did a pull test of the winch directly to a cleat and it stalled at 10% above its rating. We reviewed the calculations for the weight of the main and the loads. We then did a pull test at the halyard. Fully half of the force from the winch was consumed in friction between the winch and the load! This on a six month old boat over sheaves that had just been serviced. Remember that friction is not just the sheaves turning on their bushings or bearings. It is also inter-fiber friction--within the rope itself--as it bends over sheaves and fairleads. I had a similar experience with a large swing keel boat that brought the keel lift line back to the cockpit (no measurements but the load was clear). I believed in lines left at the mast before those experiences. Now I am a confirmed and unrepentant believer.

I'm not a complete Luddite, *grin* I have my eye on one of the winches from Anderson that have the motor built into the drum of the winch. No protrusion through the mounting surface. That makes them a perfect solution for mast-mounting to haul halyards.

I've taken pains to separate facts (experience, observations, measurements) from opinion (conclusions). Other people can look at the same facts and draw different conclusions. Others may have different risk thresholds than I. Yet others may prefer to turn a blind eye to the risks inherent in their choices.

If I was looking at a boat that already had a furling system I, personally, would not walk away from a boat that spoke to me otherwise on the basis of furling. I'd deal with it. If the boat had lines to the cockpit I'd undo that and return to the mast (and make the holes the lines came through weathertight). If I was to order another new boat (unlikely) I would not change what I have on Auspicious: reef hooks forward, reef lines aft, slab reefing, all controls save sheet at the mast. I'd add that spiffy Anderson electric winch on the mast though. *grin*
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Old 19-10-2019, 06:35   #95
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

You might be right in principle (eg: agreed, bouncing halyards at the mast by hand is the fastest and most efficient approach), however you are never going to convince people on a system with all lines at the mast.

Look at all the posts here - the most often repeated comment about a furling system is "it means that I don't need to go forward".

Hence my preference for Slab Reefing but with everything led aft. It answers most questions: less to go wrong, less expensive, no need to forward, good sail shape, more easily jury rigged at sea, etc, etc.

I'm not sure what sheaves you are referring to that 'need servicing', and that might be exactly the problem with setups that have too much friction. Modern low friction blocks need little more than a freshwater wash.

And unfortunately nothing can account for the foolishness by all manner of boat yards and owners that you refer too. But that is not the fault of the system itself.

It's odd that people will spend huge money on in mast or in boom furling, but don't think it justified to spend money on the right lines, blocks, and maybe an electric winch.

Coming also from the performance side of sailing I see so many posts here about basic but seemingly difficult sailing problems. And this because (even though it sounds odd) so many cruising boats appear to be set up in a way that makes life difficult!

Here is an example of the type of blocks people should be fitting if they want a low friction setup. As well as small diameter line that will run more freely.

Yes they are expensive, but if people don't want to pay for that level of gear (but will pay for in mast or in boom furling!) then of course I'm not surprised to hear that basic sailing tasks are often 'difficult' onboard...

PS: I like the sound of the Anderson winch you mention. I'll look it up, or if you have a link please add it here

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Old 19-10-2019, 06:43   #96
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

Slabs do have their advantages. My Grandpa Henley built all of his Outhouses and Hog Pens out of Slabs. But my grandpapa wasn't sailing into a storm, so getting out of the safety of the Cockpit was not an issue. Read the records, most everyone with In-Mast Reefing wishes they had In-Boom Reefing. Apart from that those folding Greenbacks that must be LET GO OF TO CHANGE TO IN-BOOM, there is no better sail reefing system than IN-BOOM, plus when anyone asks you how your sailing is going, your answer will be; "Oh, It's Booming", or if they happen to be British your answer should be; Oh, It's Bloody Booming Mate."
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Old 19-10-2019, 06:44   #97
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Stack vs Inmast

You made me look at those spiffy winches. Spiffy indeed. As of now though, they recommend against mounting on a vertical surface. That will come though.
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Old 19-10-2019, 06:57   #98
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

Didn't need Dave's (Auspicious) very good summary to convince me of something I already learned/experienced. Will agree, leading the lines aft takes more power to get things done and is typically slower than what you can do directly at the mast. Additionally the added cost of more hardware, extra winches, clutches, etc. and a major cluster of lines in the cockpit is not all that appealing. Also all this extra gear increases the number of potential failure points

We are fine leaving the cockpit in heavy conditions w/the proper safety equipment in place. It is possible many do not have the proper safety equipment to go forward and therefore are hesitant to do so.


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Old 19-10-2019, 06:58   #99
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

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Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
You might be right in principle, however you are never going to convince people on a system with all lines at the mast.
I know. I'm Don Quixote. There are lots of people who confuse their own opinions with facts. How often have you (or anyone) had to go forward, or seen someone go forward, to actually get something done?

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Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
Hence my preference for Slab Reefing but with everything led aft. It answers most questions: less to go wrong, less expensive, no need to forward, good sail shape, more easily jury rigged at sea, etc, etc.
I disagree. With lines at the mast as the baseline for comparison, lines led aft aft have more to go wrong, more expensive, and takes longer. Jerry rigging when necessary is easier at the mast.

I have no expectation of convincing anyone. I feel better for laying out the data. Anyone can call their opinion fact and my facts opinion but that doesn't change the engineering.

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Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
I'm not sure what sheaves you are referring to that 'need servicing', and that might be exactly the problem with setups that have too much friction. Modern low friction blocks need little more than a freshwater wash.
Even new blocks can build up enough salt that a freshwater wash is insufficient. Mild chemical warfare is in order. Generally this is a soak or at least a spritz (Im not taking the masthead blocks apart, especially if I'm hanging on one) with vinegar and then a second wash. Let's not lose sight of the build up of salt in the halyards.

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Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
And unfortunately nothing can account for the foolishness by all manner of boat yards and owners that you refer too. But that is not the fault of the system itself.
Agreed. I tried to be as tactful as I could.

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Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
It's odd that people will spend huge money on in mast or in boom furling, but don't think it justified to spend money on the right lines, blocks, and maybe an electric winch.
I agree. Grinding space is still important for electric winches. What if the winch fails, the solenoid fails, the switches fail, the batteries are low, ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
Here is an example of the type of blocks people should be fitting if they want a low friction setup.
Sure. Those don't apply to sheaves at the masthead unless you have external halyards, to internal turning blocks (all those under deck systems), and fairleads.

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Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
PS: I like the sound of the Anderson winch you mention. I'll look it up, or if you have a link please add it here
https://andersenwinches.com/aw/winch...t_electric.asp

They are pretty and look great under the Christmas tree with red and green bows.
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Old 19-10-2019, 07:12   #100
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
I certainly don't turn down work based on the main sail of a boat. As a result I've sailed a lot of boats with in-mast furling, quite a few with in-boom furling, and many many with slab reefing or some variant. I've down reefing at the mast and in the cockpit. I have some experience here, and opinions based on that experience.

In-mast furling is most prone to failure usually due to the sail folding and getting caught at or just inside the slot. As Snore and others have noted a tired sail is most likely to fail. Too loose a furl will also cause binding. Most in-mast furling systems have no backup so if anything in the mechanism fails (I had the main furling rod shear between the hydraulic drive and the bottom of the track) you're really in trouble. In my experience failures usually occur partway through the evolution which results in the infamous expedient of sending someone aloft with a knife. Regardless you have to have the halyard tension right and you have to balance the furler and the outhaul in operation.

In-boom furling is very fussy about boom angle. If you don't have that right the sail is too tight at one end of the boom and too loose at the other; eventually it binds up. The most common failure is the motor drive - either the motor itself or the gear train. Most booms do have a manual crank as backup but it is usually at the aft end of the boom and may not be reachable, at least not safely. In operation you must have the boom angle right, the outhaul tension right, and balance the furler and the halyard.

Most of us grew up with slab reefing so I won't belabor that. Failure modes stem from the track system more than anything else. Slab reefing is simply the most reliable.

All of the systems are prone to chafe failure: halyards, sheets, and miscellaneous running rigging.

Whether you use an in-mast furler, in-boom furler, or run lines for slab reefing to the cockpit furling WILL take longer than slab reefing at the mast. The longer you spend in a state of transition the more likely that something else will go wrong while you are focused on that transition.

So much for experience. Herewith opinion:

First "it has never happened to me" comes from people without an understanding of statistics and risk management. The latter is important: you consider not only the probability of occurrence but the impact of occurrence. A risk that is likely with the impact of a hangnail does not get the attention of a risk that is unlikely with the impact of going up the mast in heavy weather.

There are a bunch of things that can go wrong with an in-mast furling system and they fall in the category of either "bad" or "really bad." That said, attention to detail every single time can reduce failures considerably. If I do get a fold, I tack back and forth to load the sail on each side alternately and usually can get it out. I much prefer this to sending someone aloft. The biggest risk is a total system failure with a partially furled (even two wraps) main that you simply cannot get down.

In-boom furling is somewhat more prone to failure than in-mast but when something gets stuck you can always drop the main on top of the boom and be done with it. Other than that it is slow and shares track-based failure modes with slab reefing.

Slab reefing fails when something goes wrong with the track or the halyard fails. You can mitigate track failures by regular inspection, cleaning, and lubrication. You can reduce operational complexity by being sure that the fore (if you have them) and aft reefing lines are on the same side of the sail so you don't break a batten and alternating the direction of fall so that the first and third reef are on the same side of the mast as the main running rigging.

I'm not a fan of lines (other than sheets) led to the cockpit. Everything takes longer. The loads quite literally double; see story to follow. Even at my age and in my condition everything is faster at the mast. I see that as a net safety plus. I've also seen owners install all kinds of things (mostly biminis and electronics) that limit part of the grinding circle of winches.

A customer has a beautiful 50 custom catamaran. Electric winches everywhere. One of the owner's concerns (and mine) was that even with no wind the winch used to raise the main struggled the last couple of feet. When the factory techs came to the boat for punch list review and service the owner wasn't available so he sent me to act as his agent. A we did a pull test of the winch directly to a cleat and it stalled at 10% above its rating. We reviewed the calculations for the weight of the main and the loads. We then did a pull test at the halyard. Fully half of the force from the winch was consumed in friction between the winch and the load! This on a six month old boat over sheaves that had just been serviced. Remember that friction is not just the sheaves turning on their bushings or bearings. It is also inter-fiber friction--within the rope itself--as it bends over sheaves and fairleads. I had a similar experience with a large swing keel boat that brought the keel lift line back to the cockpit (no measurements but the load was clear). I believed in lines left at the mast before those experiences. Now I am a confirmed and unrepentant believer.

I'm not a complete Luddite, *grin* I have my eye on one of the winches from Anderson that have the motor built into the drum of the winch. No protrusion through the mounting surface. That makes them a perfect solution for mast-mounting to haul halyards.

I've taken pains to separate facts (experience, observations, measurements) from opinion (conclusions). Other people can look at the same facts and draw different conclusions. Others may have different risk thresholds than I. Yet others may prefer to turn a blind eye to the risks inherent in their choices.

If I was looking at a boat that already had a furling system I, personally, would not walk away from a boat that spoke to me otherwise on the basis of furling. I'd deal with it. If the boat had lines to the cockpit I'd undo that and return to the mast (and make the holes the lines came through weathertight). If I was to order another new boat (unlikely) I would not change what I have on Auspicious: reef hooks forward, reef lines aft, slab reefing, all controls save sheet at the mast. I'd add that spiffy Anderson electric winch on the mast though. *grin*

In the Internet everyone has equal rights to post whatever they want to, with mere prejudice posted right next to actual knowledge based on either serious thought or real experience. So thanks to Auspicious for adding to the second of those, as he usually does.


I think he's provided a great description of the various failure modes of the different systems, and for sure all systems are all subject to failure and it is not wise to assume that it can't happen to you. However, it has not been my own experience (which is just one data point so no more proof than Auscipious's particular experience) that slab reefing is dramatically more reliable than in-mast. I think it's more a question of in-mast furling requiring more maintenance and more care in keeping up with maintenance, than conventional reefing. Properly operated and maintained in-mast furling is extremely reliable. That doesn't mean it can't fail, but the kind of catastrophic failures Auspicious describes which require cutting the main down are catastrophic GEAR failures which shouldn't ever happen with reasonable maintenance and operation. Just for example -- there should NEVER be a failure of the bevel gear -- it can't fail without a completely destroyed bearing or complete failure of the bearing boss, and careful operators inspect and lubricate all of that every year; they just don't fail suddenly. So that's why those of us who own them have confidence in them; a delivery skipper who uses different sometimes neglected ones, and is not going to pull them apart and inspect them before very delivery job, is going to be subject to a much higher level of risk, than knowledgeable and diligent owners. And yes, the requirement of maintenance is a definite downside of in-mast furling, as I have written.


For the same reason, I don't think in-mast furling is a good choice for casual coastal sailors who are less likely to be skilled users and less likely to do the maintenance right. I have looked with wonder at in-mast furling gaining so much popularity over the last 10 years that in Europe it is approaching universality even for inexpensive coastal cruisers, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. I never recommend in-mast furling for someone's first boat; the system is not idiot proof, which is one of its drawbacks compared to slab reefing, which IS relatively idiot-proof, and at least all of its working parts are exposed to view and easy to understand, unlike the case with in-mast. A beginner's first boat should for sure have slab reefing.



I actually have similar experiences and views to Auspicious' with regard to lines led back to the cockpit. I converted my previous boat (with full batten main) from one-line reefing to reefing at the mast; I also added Harken batt cars after having had a couple of bad jams over the years (far worse than anything I have ever experienced with in-mast furling). But the system worked like butter after that; I highly recommend the batt cars. I did however hate going to the mast in heavy weather and particularly dreaded heading up in big sea conditions, so I simply used the mainsail a lot less than I do on my present boat, and often sailed with less than optimal amount of mainsail up, just because I didn't want to risk having to keep going back and changing it again if the wind kicked up again. So, tradeoffs everywhere, but on balance based on my own experience I believe I would set up the reefing on a conventional main the way Auspicious has, and for sure with some kind of powered winch for the halyards.



Concerning lines led from the mast back to the cockpit, I don't even like this with in-mast furling. You just can't get away from friction when you have lines turning corners. The good news with in-mast furling is you don't handle the halyard at all when reefing, so the halyard can be a good simple at-mast system (I'm lusting after the Harken halyard tensioners, however), but you still have the endless furling line. I think if I were doing this with a clean sheet of paper I would use an electric motor instead of the furling line. The Selden system has manual operator at the mast in case anything fails. The big advantage of the electric operation is you don't have to handle and tail the furling line, so you have a hand free for the outhaul and it will be easier to keep a better watch on how the operation is going.



Ironically, for all its fundamental ease of furling, in-mast furling with an endless furling line is not really a one-man operation, even with an electric winch. Again, tradeoffs everywhere.

Like Auspicious, I do not feel passionate enough about any particularly furling system to make it a deal breaker. And that's what I would have advised the OP, although he was ordering a new boat and so had a choice, and I think he finally decided to go with in-mast.

I am actually looking at boats at the moment as a possible alternative to building new, and I'm looking at metal boats suitable for Arctic work, and I'm concentrating on ketches. I am looking in the size range of 65 to 75 feet, and so far every likely prospect has had in-mast furling. I just missed one delicious candidate, a completely rebuilt 65' aluminium ketch which had just been through a $1 million refit, with new dual six cylinder diesels, excellent pilothouse, and completely new ketch rig. It had watertight compartments and a lot of excellent high latitude features. What a shame I missed it; it was sold within a few weeks of coming on the market for less than the cost of the refit; it would not have been quite as nice as built new to my exact specs, but the cost would have been a fraction of that, too. This boat had a nicely set up in-mast furling on both main and mizzen; this did not bother me although I think I would have a slight preference for slab reefing for the next boat.
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Old 19-10-2019, 07:35   #101
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
. . .
https://andersenwinches.com/aw/winch...t_electric.asp

They are pretty and look great under the Christmas tree with red and green bows.

That looks splendid!!


I have sailed on a number of Swans with slab reefing, which were forced to put the winches in the deck so that there was some place for the motors, requiring turning blocks and such faff -- I didn't like it.


Yet a manual halyard winch is a real process bottleneck for a slab reefing system.


For me, this winch would be something of a game changer for a slab reefing boat
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Old 19-10-2019, 07:40   #102
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
I disagree. With lines at the mast as the baseline for comparison, lines led aft aft have more to go wrong, more expensive, and takes longer. Jerry rigging when necessary is easier at the mast.
This was a misunderstanding of my post. I meant (Slab Reefing + Lines Lead Aft) in comparison to a furling system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
Even new blocks can build up enough salt that a freshwater wash is insufficient. Mild chemical warfare is in order. Generally this is a soak or at least a spritz (Im not taking the masthead blocks apart, especially if I'm hanging on one) with vinegar and then a second wash. Let's not lose sight of the build up of salt in the halyards.
Sounds like a lack of maintenance to me. A lot of these things end up being user error (I don't mean yours, I mean in general). As an aside, over in the watermaker threads people are always horrified at the suggestion of a freshwater wash down after every sail... But here complain that there is too much friction... Ugh, you can't win...


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Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
Agreed. I tried to be as tactful as I could.
Fair... there is some damn dumb stuff done which is why I try to say 'it doesn't have to be like that' (or, if it's too hard, you are doing it wrong).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
I agree. Grinding space is still important for electric winches. What if the winch fails, the solenoid fails, the switches fail, the batteries are low, ....
This is why I think that a case can be made between a full furling system and a 'full' Slab Reefing system including electric winches (and the electrical system to support this if necessary) because it all does double duty:

- with some forethought the electric winch(es) can be used for multiple other tasks, mast climbing, docking, second anchor warp, dinghy hoist, etc, etc

- the electric winch still works as a manual winch, a built in backup, it's great

- the upgraded electrical systems also supports multiple other tasks

- the dedicated furling system only does one thing, and if it's broken, it's broken...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
Sure. Those don't apply to sheaves at the masthead unless you have external halyards, to internal turning blocks (all those under deck systems), and fairleads.
They are available in all types of configurations. And masthead (or boom) sheaves too. I'll link below. I updated an entire boat and rig to this. That was 25 years ago, so my use of 'modern' is... well... more reflective of the sad state of a lot of cruising boats, and why so many every day tasks are often claimed to be so 'difficult'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
https://andersenwinches.com/aw/winch...t_electric.asp

They are pretty and look great under the Christmas tree with red and green bows.
Cool, thanks, always been an Anderson fan so looking forward to Santa coming at some stage!



Example links & pics:

https://www.harken.com/productcategory.aspx?taxid=1507
https://www.harken.com/productcategory.aspx?taxid=396









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Old 19-10-2019, 08:22   #103
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

@Dockhead

I totally agree about the properly maintained, and operated, and that applies to all of the systems.

It's important to compare like with like in that regard, whatever the comparison.

But I really can't get over the whole friction issue that keeps being mentioned. I understand it, I know it exists, and I've been on boats where I wanted to kill myself because everything was so difficult...

But I always come back to 'it doesn't have to be like that'.

And my racing experience always points me in the direction of a well designed system with minimal friction and everything in good working order.

And as I have mentioned before, I could put a reef in the heavy big roach fully battened cruising main on a Swan 51, singlehanded and with ease (how do people think it's done singlehanded on an IMOCA race boat?)

Physically it was a workout (and I was younger then) but that was solved when the electric winch was added, after which it was very easy and took only a few minutes, start to finish.

But yes:

- all low friction design deck system
- mast track system (I installed an Antal system, it was better than Harken at the time, removable and no BB to lose/fail hs high strength fibre systems-antal)
- all lines led aft
- small diameter lines
- electric winch
- all lines marked
- good rope clutch system

And we never used to go head to wind to do this, instead:

- Just keep sailing on the headsail, a close reach was normally best
- Set the Autopilot to steer apparent wind angle so that trim and balance remains constant
- Massively ease the mainsail, with the fully battened main it would just sit there quietly, depowered
- Drop the halyard to the mark (sail drops mostly by itself on the mast track system)
- Pull the downhaul tight
- Winch the halyard tight (only tensioning really because it's already at the mark)
- Winch the reefing line tight (pull the slack by hand first if you wish)
- Job done.

It really was a few minutes single handed, and really not difficult at all.

But yes I did design and install a really good system using all race level equipment at the time. But it was also very simple, and most importantly, it always worked regardless of the conditions (and no BS about having to get the exact angle of the sun and planet jupiter lined up, etc).

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Old 19-10-2019, 08:37   #104
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

Another vote for slab reefing. I could see in-boom, but in-mast is a no starter. It's not that I don't understand it's attraction and popularity, I do, the advantages and convenience is well noted here in this thread, numerous times, but it's just not for me.

In the first place there is the weight in the mast (extra material in the extrusion and the foil, the swivels, the bearings, etc). Don't need it and it is in a small way, but important due to it's distance aloft, detrimental to so many important sailing characteristics.

Then there is the complexity of the mechanism, don't want it and don't need it. The sail handling devices should not be complex.

And the thought of a jam in a storm situation really worries me.

But more than all of that, and the deal breaker for me, it is detrimental to the shape of the mainsail. A lot (most) of our sailing is with a full main, beautifully set and shaped. We'd lose that with in-mast.

So, in our case we'll forego the convenience and keep our preference for slab reefing.

We do go forward to pull down the main and hook the tack on the hook.

Otherwise the work is in the cockpit. The one turning block adds little friction and everything leads directly to a large 3-speed winch. It is easy and fast. Reefing takes about 1.5 minutes (we're practiced), excepting the time put in the reef point ties, if we even bother.

All the really enthusiastic sailors I know prefer slab reefing.
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Old 19-10-2019, 08:55   #105
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Re: Stack vs Inmast

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
We do go forward to pull down the main and hook the tack on the hook.

Otherwise the work is in the cockpit. The one turning block adds little friction and everything leads directly to a large 3-speed winch. It is easy and fast. Reefing takes about 1.5 minutes (we're practiced), excepting the time put in the reef point ties, if we even bother..
Thank goodness! I was really starting to not understand why slab reefing is 'so difficult' for everyone else

Well actually, I perfectly well understand - they have a poor setup and poor equipment, and then they wonder why it doesn't work very well...

PS: nothing like a 3 speed winch to get the job done!
We often used to throw all kinds of tasks onto the big 3 speed primaries (no coffee grinders though)

But most of the cruising boats here have nowhere near that level of winch onboard (most in fact probably don't even know what it is...) and the deck gear, is, well...
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