Should I consider a ketch as a first boat?

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by michaelratinter

The boats I bought in order:

Capri 14.2 sloop
Catalina 270 sloop
Roberts Offshore 44 ketch

I still have all 3.

You have three boats?

Wow! One of the most stressful months of my life was when I had two airplanes.

Have you considered professional help?

Lol kidding of course

[flightlead404]

Thanks everyone for your input, which was great reading and educational. At this point lead on the ketch has evaporated, but I’m enjoying learning.

Today I viewed a mid-80’s Morgan 384 in really nice shape with loads of new gear which is now my primary target.

[jstevens]

I have a Pearson 424 Ketch. Slightly larger than the 365, but the same basic design. Most people can't tell the difference unless the boats are side by side.
No problem rigging a Bimini. I raised the mizzen boom about 6" so I could stand under mine (I'm 6'1"). Solar is a little more difficult and I haven't rigged any panels on Sarah. Most of the 365's and 424's I've seen with solar have rigged the panel on the sides of the cockpit, which means most of the time only one of the panels is effective. Sloops and cutters can rig the panels on top of the Bimini with minimum concerns about shadows on the panels. The same could be done on my boat by raising the mizzen boom another 6", but the mizzen sail (furled or un-furled) would put a major shadow on the panels.
Other than the solar panel issue, I believe a ketch is a great cruising rig.

John

[Mainstreet]

Absolutely no issues starting with a ketch either with or without a staysail. In my50+ years of sailing I’ve sailed catboats, dinghies , sloops, cutters, ketches and schooners and variations of all of these. Just start with the main and a small jib and get to know the boat well. Then add sails as the rig allows and try all combinations. Sailing is a lifetime learning experience. Enjoy the learning!

[Mickeyrouse]

As a split-rig sailor (a yawl) for 25 years I subscribe to two-masted sailing. I would like to note the difference between yawls and ketches. In a yawl, the mizzen ( the 2nd, aft, smaller sail) is located aft of the helm, whereas it is to be found forward of the helm on a ketch. I have spent some time on ketches as well, so my preference runs to a yawl rig. Since the ketch mizzen is forward of the helm, visibility is somewhat ( not critically) restricted. Depending on the boat, the mizzen boom can restrict head room for the helmsman as well. The ketch rig often allows for a slightly great mizzen size than yawl rig.
One advantage I have come to appreciate on our yawl is the ability to mount a helmsman’s seat on the forward side of the mizzen mast, allowing for a more comfortable and less-tiring helm watch. That is no small thing after the tens of thousands of miles we have sailed our boat.
I have not found any appreciable performance difference of yawl vs. ketch when close hauled: I believe the mizzen on either rig to be pretty useless because if the mizzen is sheeted in enough to stop luffing, then it is inducing weather helm and subsequent increased rudder drag (and helming effort) to counter it. That may be alleviated by a much flatter-cut sail, but that would compromise off-the-wind sailing. I can detect no improvement in boat speed with a mizzen under such points of sail.
Where a split rig shines is beam-reach and off-the-wind performance. I am always amazed at boat speed particularly in light to moderate air if we have the mizzen raised. When the wind is up, we often sail under Jenny and mizzen. If you rig a mizzen staysail, then things really happen.
We don’t always raise our mizzen when out. If it’s a day of mostly beating, there is little point. But it is the easiest sail to raise by far as well as stow and put away.
Don’t expect economy when contemplating a split rig. One more set of standing rigging, running rigging, spars, sail cover, winches, and of course the sail itself. But when looking at experienced boats, it seems like boats with split rigs aren’t a whole lot more pricey. I have found few opportunities to compare costs of split rig vs. sloop by the same builder, hull model, age and comparable equipment.
Finally, I believe the attraction of the sailing life for many of us is simply the aesthetic of the matter. As I’ve said for most of my sailing career, there’s little that’s practical about boats, especially sailboats. So from that perspective, nothing speaks to the romance of sailboats like a split rig- whether schooner, ketch or yawl. Before Hurricane Ike decimated our local boat population, there were four split rig boats- yawls and ketches- out of 450 boats in our local marina. I imagine the total percentage of split rigs would be about the same population nationally. So if, in addition to other selection criteria, you want a truly distinctive boat, two masts for sure.

[Captain Steve]

I never intended to purchase a ketch since based on all my reading many years ago I decided I should buy a cutter. Since then I have owned two keel boats: a Cape Dory 30 ketch and an AMEL Sharki 41 ketch which I sailed around the world on for 12 years and still own. There are many advantages to a ketch, especially in heavy weather. I have sailed safely under control (not necessarily comfortably) in sustained 45 knot winds for 6 hours from Guadeloupe to Antigua in the Caribbean, on one occasion "jib and jigger" with mizzen and reefed Genoa with good balance and not risking blowing out the mainsail. I found our boat heaves to well with heavily reefed main and mizzen with no headsail which we have done on numerous occasions. We probably point better with the mizzen as the mizzen will start to luff before the main which warns me I am pointing too high. Unlike some ketch owners we always use the mizzen for most points of sail except occasionally downwind when it causes too much yawing. A ketch has a shorter mainmast which is sometimes useful getting under bridges. Our mizzen mast is behind our center cockpit so is not in the way of anything. We use a halyard on the mizzen to lift the dinghy at night.

The main disadvantage is twice the masts and rigging.

I would not be opposed to purchasing another. I would love to own an AMEL Super Maramu 53 which is also a ketch and maybe the ultimate cruising boat.

[BPete]

This guy seems to be solving the solar issue .... https://www.boats.com/sailing-boats/...arson-7431449/

[SV Magnolia]

As your "First Boat" I would be far more concerned about the hull length and design of the vessel than anything else. Is an individual comfortable and confident? Are the right decisions being made in navigating smaller areas? Is there already some experience with navigating smaller hulls before jumping up in length? That sort of thing. You've found something in the 30 ft range is it? Rigging and rigging styles can be easily learned. Sailing is sailing and the way she's rigged is just part of that. Only a little of off topic of your question, but.....

Day with the SV Magnolia

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

I'm looking for my first boat, or first one I couldn't pick up and put on the roof of my car anyway.

Up to now I've been avoiding ketches, focusing on sloops. I've looked at a couple of cutters but they didn't fit the bill.

I've come across a mid-eighties Pearson 365 ketch that meets all my criteria except its a ketch.

This is for FL keys gunkholing, probably coming up north in the summer, possible Bahamas in 2022.

Been sailing a 1983 Dickerson Ketch for 15 yrs. Had sloops prior. Will take a Ketch any day. Many times when sloops are reefing, I'm running a full genoa and a mizzen with no weather helm. Find a boat that meets you sailing needs.

[Happ]

Having sailed both I prefer a sloop. Purely because I don’t have to take the cover off and raise another sail. As others have said they have limited advantages. Perhaps that is why they are no longer built very often. The advantages though are numerous and may help you. They are lower aspect rigged as well as the usual area of a main is smaller as the mizzen picks up that sail are. Shorter rig usually means a stiffer boat. Not a bad thing. They are versatile as you can fly the mizzen and genoa for a nice balance in a blow. In the right wind you can pick up .5 to .75 of boat speed. All in all a ketch can be easier to hoist and trim because the sail are is split between the two masts. If you like tweaking trim a ketch will give you more to play with. If you don’t the mizzen will mostly never be used.

[Dave Isom]

My first boat was an H 28 ketch . It was the first Herreschoff 28 launched in the world,Marloo, built in Melbourne, Australia , 1945. I absolutely loved that boat and would not be put off buying a ketch. It has a number of advantages well described by previous posts and few but not many disadvantages. Just go for it and don’t agonise about it. Have fun and love your boat, never go to sea in a boat you don’t love !

[Sailor-Gene]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

I'm looking for my first boat, or first one I couldn't pick up and put on the roof of my car anyway.

Up to now I've been avoiding ketches, focusing on sloops. I've looked at a couple of cutters but they didn't fit the bill.

I've come across a mid-eighties Pearson 365 ketch that meets all my criteria except its a ketch.

This is for FL keys gunkholing, probably coming up north in the summer, possible Bahamas in 2022.

YES !!! My "first" sail boat was a Morgan Out Island 41 Ketch. It had a comfortable aft cabin, large center cockpit, large salon, and a 4' draft. The mizzen is set just aft of the cockpit... nice design. I lived aboard off Los Olas in Fort Lauderdale and sailed many trips to the Bahamas.


Lazy day sailing with moderate winds, Jib furled appropriately plus mizzen provided balance and nice speed, After FL., I moved it to SFO Bay for a few years and love the sailing there. More reefing practice.

Happy Sailing
Gene

[Dave9111]

You need to really think about how you are going to sail your boat.
Will you be sailing short handed frequently? That means you, by yourself, or you and someone else of limited strength. This really matters on a sailboat. On a sloop not much larger than 35 ft you will find that handling the sails in a blow can be VERY difficult by yourself. You will find that you will be making many decisions based on your single handed abilities. Like NOT leaving the dock.

I know guys who have 40-43 ft sloops who consider short handed sailing as having two strong people, who know how to sail, actively sailing the boat. They won't go out by themselves. And they won't go out with only one other not so strong sailor. Strong people who don't know how to sail - don't count.

A ketch is a big advantage for short handed sailing on boats over 35 ft.
A ketch makes for smaller, more manageable sails.
I was considering buying a bigger sloop, but I sail by myself 90% of the time. The only way I would go bigger than 35 ft is with a ketch. BTW, I'm 6'-2" and 250 lbs.

You don't mention if you have a sailing partner or not. But unless your partner is seriously strong, you need to consider that you will be short handing MOST of the time.

There are a lot of 40+ ft sloop dock queens at my marina because they are just too big to single hand. People oftentimes find that out too late.

FYI - the Pearson 365 is a good boat.

[goboatingnow]

Personally while I like the “ look “ of ketches and have sailed some , they are today largely an anachronism of the time when sail handling was heavy and awkward.

Today with modern blocks, self tailing winches , and either in mast furling or car based furling , you can easily handle much bigger sail areas single handed if needed , I’ve easily managed suitable boats up to 50 foot on my own during a watch including reefing

Hence a ketch rigs adds maintenance costs for extremely little advantage and takes up valuable real estate above and below decks to boot.

[merrydolphin]

There is nothing wrong with a Ketch. I have owned cutters sloops and ketches. They all work! Well! Get what you want. Don’t let the rig hang you up. Only one truth in boats. “Everything is a trade-off.” The ketch gives you a lower rig able to get under lower bridges, also spreads the rig into easier handling. I had a large 46 foot Ketch and loved it. I could easily handle it by my self. You also get more variety of sail combos and balance. Are you doing serious races? No? Nothing wrong with a ketch. I made near 200 mile days a number of times with a heavy cruising ketch. And don’t forget, you can always sail a ketch as a sloop. Especially in any amount of wind. Loved my cutter too and have had a couple of sloops 3, all were nice boats. Unless you are a serious racer don’t worry about it. They all sail well!!