Shopping for a Blue Water Cruiser

[Cap Morgan]

Originally Posted by MJH

I don't understand your concern with finding a "good broker". Your concern should be with finding a good boat. Are you somehow restricted from doing the search yourself? Are you looking for a "buyers broker" that will search and negotiate for you? Your desired boat details look reasonable to me but the $65 may be a challenge.

From most of the ads I have read most brokers don't seem to care about the boat details they post in their ads; incorrect boat specifications and poor photos. Brokers only get paid after the sale so getting you into a boat is his goal...ANY BOAT!

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

MJH,

As mentioned in my original post I've been searching the internet for quite a while mostly using Yachtworld and BoatTrader. My request was for reputable Brokers that could assist me in my search given my specs or for other sources besides Yachtworld and BoatTrader that Sailors like yourself may have had good results with in the past. I'm attempting to expand the scope of my search,
Hope this clarifies.

[Cap Morgan]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

All Class A boats (which are nearly all of the common one in this size class) are rated for blue water.

Interesting statement. This is how all monohull with a keel work. As there isn't a class of specially crappy boats for charter only, I'm unsure where you get this disdain for charter boats. You can choose from all major brands and easily take them offshore into blue water. That's what many people do.

The main difference off charter boats from owners version is in the interior. They prioritise berths over stowage, which is why often cruisers use one of the cabins as storage locker. Also cruisers often install some conveniences in the boat as add-on not needed that much for chartering, the main being probably a solar arch. But here again, you need to know what specifics you care about. Some people might want davits, other not (I'm in the not camp)

Here again, you cover nearly all more or less recent (say last 35 years) boats in this size class (35'-42') that aren't dedicated racers for crews. If it has a head and a galley, you'll be able to sail it single handed. In the worst case you might have to do a little setup to make it a little easier.

To sum it up, you really should tell us a little more what you intend to do: Sail in the Bahamas and Caribbean? Cross the Atlantic to visit Europe? Go the coconut route across the Pacific? Go to Patagonia? Do winter-sailing to in the North-Atlantic? Visit South Georgia Island?

Joh

In regards to my points of view on what constitutes a "Blue Water capable" Sailboat I'd have to refer you to the book "Sailing a Serious Ocean" by John Kretschmer. John spent his entire working career as a Delivery Captain and has some truly interesting experiences to share as well as recommendations for Sailboats for crossing Oceans. If for no other reason I highly recommend this read as it is so well written. I'm not against Charter Boats but I know what I want.
I appreciate your feedback.

[Sailor647]

We started with John Neal's list and only looked at boats on this list. Ended up with one on the list and are very, very happy with it.

http://mahina.com/wp-content/uploads...e-Cruising.pdf

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Cap Morgan

Joh

In regards to my points of view on what constitutes a "Blue Water capable" Sailboat I'd have to refer you to the book "Sailing a Serious Ocean" by John Kretschmer. John spent his entire working career as a Delivery Captain and has some truly interesting experiences to share as well as recommendations for Sailboats for crossing Oceans. If for no other reason I highly recommend this read as it is so well written. I'm not against Charter Boats but I know what I want.
I appreciate your feedback.

It's wonderful to "know what you want"! And equally great that not all people see the world the same way.

What perhaps raised my eyebrows a bit was your statement about charter boats "not inclined to right themselves", which is just a weird thing to say. Most modern charter boats come with STIX values, stability curves, and CE certifications to address that very point.

So, lovely that you know what horse you want, but that doesn't mean the rest of them are weak and unfit for the race.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Sailor647

We started with John Neal's list and only looked at boats on this list. Ended up with one on the list and are very, very happy with it.

http://mahina.com/wp-content/uploads...e-Cruising.pdf

So, really, on that list, the Swan 48 (for example) is "poorly suited for ocean cruising with open cockpits and limited tankage & storage".

Sorry, I'm getting tangled up

[Cap Morgan]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Cap Morgan:

You say: "Blue water capable as opposed to coastal sailing or bare boat cruisers. For instance, I’m looking for a monohull that will be inclined to right itself if knocked down which wouldn’t be the case with the typical Charter boat."

Really? How do you know that?

I'm not being snarly, Cap. Quite the contrary. I'm hoping that we 'ere on CF can help to get you on the right track. IMO starting with Boat Trader and Yachtworld is QUITE the wrong approach to solving the problem before you. What you DO need to do, as suggested by other CFers in previous post though no-one has sail so in so many words, is start by doing some ruthlessly structured thinking about what

The ruthlessly structured research and thinking that I've engaged in over the past year included reading this book, "Sailing a Serious Ocean". I trust this expert and the points he makes about being caught out in bad weather. Best laid plans should also include, "what will I do if the forecasting is incorrect or if I miscalculate something?"
I'd rather heed the the advice of a 100k+ miler like Kretschmer.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Cap Morgan

MJH,

As mentioned in my original post I've been searching the internet for quite a while mostly using Yachtworld and BoatTrader. My request was for reputable Brokers that could assist me in my search given my specs or for other sources besides Yachtworld and BoatTrader that Sailors like yourself may have had good results with in the past. I'm attempting to expand the scope of my search,
Hope this clarifies.

OK. Don't give up looking. Your specs are reasonable for a world cruiser and there are boats like that out there. It took me five years to find mine (Yachtworld) which met all of your specs and more in St. Augustine. I matched your price as well but ended up having to correct many of the previous owner's poor installations plus replacing rigging and sails...but the brand new marina installed engine was a plus.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[Cap Morgan]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

It's wonderful to "know what you want"! And equally great that not all people see the world the same way.

What perhaps raised my eyebrows a bit was your statement about charter boats "not inclined to right themselves", which is just a weird thing to say. Most modern charter boats come with STIX values, stability curves, and CE certifications to address that very point.

So, lovely that you know what horse you want, but that doesn't mean the rest of them are weak and unfit for the race.

Mglonnro

Thanks for your feedback. With your reply it appears that I may have offended the Charter Boat community with my comment comparing their performance to the type of boat that I am seeking. Since that is the case please accept my apologies to all that may have been offended.
You've mentioned that "most modern Charter Boats" come with an assortment of technologies to address righting the boat. Unfortunately, at the price-point that I'm looking at there wont be any of these features even with Charter Boats. These are modern technologies not available on old boats that I'm searching for. Again, sorry if I offended your choice of Boat, that was never my intention.

[Sailor647]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

So, really, on that list, the Swan 48 (for example) is "poorly suited for ocean cruising with open cockpits and limited tankage & storage". Sorry, I'm getting tangled up

LOL, right? The comment after our boat says, "Have held their value well but require a lot of maintenance. Rusty fuel tanks present an expensive repair issue."

"Require a lot of maintenance" compared to what? LOL What boat doesn't require a lot of maintenance? Yes, our centerline fuel tank has been replaced with a nice shiny aluminum one, which was doable because both the original and new tank fit through the companionway. Most steel fuel tanks are going to need repair or maintenance after 30 years, right?

The list was helpful for us at the time, being newbies and all.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

It's wonderful to "know what you want"! And equally great that not all people see the world the same way.

What perhaps raised my eyebrows a bit was your statement about charter boats "not inclined to right themselves", which is just a weird thing to say. Most modern charter boats come with STIX values, stability curves, and CE certifications to address that very point.

So, lovely that you know what horse you want, but that doesn't mean the rest of them are weak and unfit for the race.

Kerp in mind that the requirement for RCD cat A is a vanishing stability of 100 to 120 degrees! Very few boats has much more than that.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Cap Morgan

Mglonnro

Thanks for your feedback. With your reply it appears that I may have offended the Charter Boat community with my comment comparing their performance to the type of boat that I am seeking. Since that is the case please accept my apologies to all that may have been offended.
You've mentioned that "most modern Charter Boats" come with an assortment of technologies to address righting the boat. Unfortunately, at the price-point that I'm looking at there wont be any of these features even with Charter Boats. These are modern technologies not available on old boats that I'm searching for. Again, sorry if I offended your choice of Boat, that was never my intention.

I'm sorry too! No worries!

And just to elaborate a bit about the things I wrote: they are not technologies as such, rather just design requirements. But sure, boats built from 2016 and onwards have had to adhere to more stringent requirements than the older ones (in Europe, but practically also elsewhere), so looking at much older boats you don't have the same amount of "regulatory guarantee".

[Cap Morgan]

Originally Posted by MJH

OK. Don't give up looking. Your specs are reasonable for a world cruiser and there are boats like that out there. It took me five years to find mine (Yachtworld) which met all of your specs and more in St. Augustine. I matched your price as well but ended up having to correct many of the previous owner's poor installations plus replacing rigging and sails...but the brand new marina installed engine was a plus.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

MJH,

Thanks for the great feedback here. One thing that I never mentioned is that my $65k budget does not reflect the budget that I'm keeping in reserve to bring the chosen boat up to spec. I'm assuming another $20k for those repairs/ modifications. Before anyone else asks "why not add that to the purchase price and get a better boat?" its my opinion that when buying a used machine of any kind there's no such thing as ready to go anywhere, especially with a craft that spends its life sitting in salt water, if that makes sense. Thanks again!

[Andrew Hamilton]

Cap Morgan I have a 41 Island Trader ketch in excellent condition. I'm sailing it down east coast the end of May.

[Kd9truck]

Brokers will use what you don’t know to sell you what you don’t need. They are people who need to make a living. Pick a boat you know, look it up on sailboatdata.com and look up the definitions of the data in the top right tab of each section. Understand that the data numbers and the equations to get the numbers have limits, understand those limits
You will find every vessel is a compromise.
What is important to you? Brokers are not clairvoyant shaman. Look on sailboatlistings.com
Compare data between vessels and prices.
“Blue water” is in the hart of the individual. And the best of the best know what there limits are and what the vessels limits are. Brokers don’t sell those things

[Cap Morgan]

Originally Posted by Kd9truck

Brokers will use what you don’t know to sell you what you don’t need. They are people who need to make a living. Pick a boat you know, look it up on sailboatdata.com and look up the definitions of the data in the top right tab of each section. Understand that the data numbers and the equations to get the numbers have limits, understand those limits
You will find every vessel is a compromise.
What is important to you? Brokers are not clairvoyant shaman. Look on sailboatlistings.com
Compare data between vessels and prices.
“Blue water” is in the hart of the individual. And the best of the best know what there limits are and what the vessels limits are. Brokers don’t sell those things

KD9,

Very valuable response indeed, thanks for your thoughts on this. To be real honest with you I'm not really that keen on the Broker idea just attempting to gain an understanding from the sailing community what your thoughts are on the most effective way to shop. With all these responses I am indeed receiving many recommended sites and am making a list of them including yours. In my research I came across a few Buyers that used Brokers in the past and that worked out for them. Think I'll re evaluate that approach though and stick to these sites that I'm receiving links to. Thanks again!