Seller / Buyer responsibilities

[MysticGringo]

Its been a little while since I have posted, but I have been lurking, some of you may know I am in the boat search mode. I have found a potential solution to my yearning, and the seller and I have agreed to a pre-survey price. The surveyor and I went through her last Monday for pretty much the whole day, and ofcourse, turned up a few issues. The boat is a 1982 C&C 34, with the centerboard option.

As with any 25 year old boat, there are going to be some issues, and I would like some help figuring out what it fair to ask the seller to correct, and what sort of items I should be responsible for as a buyer.

Before anybody says it... I am ofcourse going to ask the broker (who works for the seller... so I suspect he has a weighted opinion), and the surveyor about what they think is fair. But due to this being my first purchase, it can not be bad to get more information... so I am asking for your opinions too. Ofcourse, I also realize that every deal is different, and its all a matter of negotiation... your opinions still will help give me a "feel" for what is a fair deal.

I am not interested in making the buyer responsible for things that he shouldn't be... I am asking for what could be considered fair.

Now, onto the issues I know of so far (surveyor still typing up the report), and my personal opinion on who should take on the job of correction.

• Shower pump is broken... cause not known. (sellers responsibility).
• Head and pump-out piping is old, and will likely have issues this season. (buyer responsibility... upgrade?).
• 1 deck fitting has been leaking... core wet in small area around it. (Buyer responsibility, but discount on price?)
• Sea-cocks frozen (seller responsibility).
• Keel has delaminated, however surveyor says it is still very strong, and not deforming. (Buyer responsiblity in future, price discount? How much?)
• CNG system not up to code, for insurance. (Buyer responsibility).
• Shaft bearing needs replacing (seller responsibility).
• 120v Electrical system not to code (Buyer responsibility?)

I think those are the majority of the issues... atleast until I get the full report. Thanks in advance for your help with this, and lending me your opinion. Its all very exciting... I might be joining you all out on the water this season. So much to learn......

[swagman]

Hi Matey,
That's actually quite a list of issues to resolve and if it were me, I'd be asking the seller to fix (so your surveyor can then check they've been fixed properly before you buy - or ask the surveyor to give you an indication of costs to fix and you add say 30% to that quote, and get that amount discounted off the selling price.
Good luck
JOHN

[GordMay]

You seem to have a reasonable handle on the assignment of responsibilities.
The seller should be held responsible to repair noted deficiencies, or to reduce the selling price accordingly. One definition, I might apply to deficiency, would consider the whether defect affects the use of the boat for it’s intended purpose.
Accordingly, a non-functioning Seacock would be a deficiency, whereas an old stinky head would be a normal condition of age.

[markpj23]

Once you get the final report of survey, check with your lender and insurance company to see what they will require be resolved prior to sale.

Your logic seems sound to me - except perhaps for the CNG issue, but not enough info regarding "not up to code" to be sure.

IMO any pure safety item (like CNG system) should be seller's responsibility prior to closing the deal.

Enjoy your new boat!!

[MysticGringo]

Thanks for your input... glad to hear that I might be on track.

As far as the CNG stuff goes, the boat currently has a tank laying sideways in an unenclosed area... so the gass can actually leak into the bildge. This needs to get corrected for insurance/registration reasons, according to the surveyor (and I don't like the idea of a leak being able to get to the engine or electrical system).

I guess I am most concerned about issues like the keel and the soft patch in the deck... and what value those should have in regards to the deal. Chances are, those will not affect the boat for atleast a few more years... but when/if they do, it could be a big ticket item.

Thanks again for your help with this. First time buyers have alot of stuff to learn. This forum has provided me with a huge amount of information. I hope once I start my journey I can give back.

[Pura Vida]

Welcome to the C&C club. It's exclusive, since all the other boats are way behind you in most cases.

Anyway in my opinion the seacock, keel and deck are the trouble. You can remove the CNG tank and turn off the 120 volt and the boat will still float. But the seacock puts you one bad hose from an insurance claim. The keel and deck could both be expensive to have repaired. The deck may be the biggest risk since the surveyor may miss other spots that need to be reworked and subsequently undervalue the repair.

Consider the time the repairs will take before you are ready to sail. I bought my C&C in fixer upper condition and did not mind putting some elbow grease into her before the first serious sail. But for a first boat you may not want to keep it in the yard while you get it ready.

[delmarrey]

First, CNG will not sink to the bilge, it is lighter then air and the tanks do normally lie on their side. The tank normally has to be removed and filled at a filling site. Are you sure it's not propane??? Then it would be a concern.

As for insurance, a 1982 boat may cause the insurer to be tighter on a survey.

The seacocks defiantly need to be replaced.

The wet core, if small, is an EZ fix but costly if done by and outside vendor.

120V system? Well, it's hard to find a boat over 5 years that is to code. Codes change all the time.

The shaft bearing is also an EZ fix as long as the shaft is not worn. And that brings up the packing. Which will probably need replacing also since the bearing is bad. Once one pulls a shaft other issues may show up.

Keel has delaminating- as long as it's not showing a bulge and stays water tight it should be OK (sight unseen)

Shower pump? For a 25 YO boat you can expect some plumbing problems depending on the maintenance ambitions of the owner.

To buy a 25 YO boat and being a first time owner your going to have some real issues!!! As a first time buyer, unless mechanically inclined, I recommend buying something, in that size, a lot newer. If your finances won't allow that then I'd say hold off or go to a trailersailor size until you can afford to, or get more experience.

You'll be jumping into a project boat from what I can see between the lines. There are a lot of other things that show up later even after a good survey. To find them all one has to tear into the boat and that's when they all start coming out. A surveyor can only see what's on the surface........................_/)

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by MysticGringo

and its all a matter of negotiation...

As you state this is the key. If he is selling at the market price for a top condition vessel then I would expect him to move on price / repairs a lot more than if the selling price was a lot less.

IMO "fair" is down the list and a matter of opinion.........I would start from the viewpoint what do you want / need to be done before buying the vessel.........and if the seller is not willing to meet your needs, then move on. Put the costs incurred to date down as money very well spent. You have already saved a fortune.

1. Shower pump is broken... cause not known. (sellers responsibility).......It depends on whether it is a $100 or a $1000 fix - if cheaper then down to the buyer (it's an older boat I would expect a few things not to work) If a $1000 either a discount on the price or the seller fixes.
2. Head and pump-out piping is old, and will likely have issues this season. (buyer responsibility... upgrade?).....If it works and is "just" old, then buyer to sort out - it's an older boat - therefore equipment is also older.......unless it has clearly been bodged - then it is clearly already fooked, so down to the seller to discount or fix, but NOT upgrade nor replaced in it's entirety.
3. 1 deck fitting has been leaking... core wet in small area around it. (Buyer responsibility, but discount on price?)......Wet core? this would start me worrying a bit. Especially about how "small" is the "small area".....but I AM a worrier .....but on the basis that it IS a small area, then a discount on the price or the seller fixes.......but I would prefer the discount so I could get the fix done properly - but you need to accept the risk that the expense could be greater than the discount - but the upside is that you would know the repair has not been bodged.
4. Sea-cocks frozen (seller responsibility). Discount on price or seller fixes.......even though it's an older boat these should (and need) to work.
5. Keel has delaminated, however surveyor says it is still very strong, and not deforming. (Buyer responsiblity in future, price discount? How much?)........This starts to get interesting!......I would want to know why this happened, a common problem for this make? something specific to this boat? (maybe she ran aground and damaged the gel coat, letting water ingress??)......or just plain old bad luck.........obviously this needs fixing - The seller fixes (and I would want my surveyor or myself to see what work was being done by the boatyard / talk to them in detail about what they were doing whilst they were doing it.......or a SERIOUS discount to cover a worst case scenario to make good the keel - I have no idea exactly what a "worst case" scenario would be, but I would expect that once the boatyard gets stuck in they may well have underestimated the work required. Time for some getting some detailed specific proffesional advice......in this scenario it would (IMO) actually be a good thing if this is a common fault for this model, as folk will have been down this road before.......and it may well be the view that once fixed she is better than new.
6. CNG system not up to code, for insurance. (Buyer responsibility)......I will admit that I have no idea what a "CNG System" is!!!......but no matter, as you say it is required to obtain insurance the seller discounts or fixes.......cos' otherwise the boat is unsaleable to 90% of peeps. Including you.
7. Shaft bearing needs replacing (seller responsibility).......seller to fix or discount.
8. 120v Electrical system not to code (Buyer responsibility?).......if this is "just" because it is an old design (and it is not now illegal in the sellers home port) then it is down to the buyer .......however if any modifications have been made which now makes it "not to code" or it is actually dangerous then it is down to the buyer to fix or discount.

As you can see I have dumped a lot on the Seller ......for 5 (the keel) I personally would want the seller to fix it before I bought the boat, but may just be me. The other stuff I would be happy enough with either a discount or a fix, although 4 (seacocks) and 7 (shaft bearing) I would personally prefer to have fixed before I bought.

Now, the problem with asking for Discounts is that the seller will no doubt be reluctant to give them and depending on the sale price (and what else is better than could be expected on a vessel of this age - ie $10k of this years electronics) he may well justifiably say "these are the reasons that the boat is for sale at $70k and not $100k".........it all comes down to cold hard cash and it may well be that you both have a different (and entirely valid) values on the boat which prevents a sale. Such is life.

Remember YOU can always walk away from the boat with all your cash in your pocket. The seller can't........and I would say he is anyway faced with fixing 4, 5, 6 and 7 to make the vessel even start to be attractive to the average punter if he loses you.........and has to start all over again looking for a punter with the finance AND the desire for this model of older boat. But IME some folks selling boats never really understand the relationship between condition and value

Oooops, another long winded post .........what I meant to say was that their are no set rules. You and the Seller get to make them up

[Weyalan]

Personally, I would list all deficiencies and negotiate a reduction in purchase price based on a fair estimate of cost to repair them all. If you repair, or arrange skilled tradesmen to repair the deficiencies, you will probably get a better job... the current owner just wants rid of the boat and there will be a strong temptation for him to have repairs done as cheaply as possible, rather than having them done right; after all as soon as they are done the boat is no longer going to be his... whereas if you do them (or get them done), it will be your boat that is being repaired so that you have a vested interest in getting the job done properly.

In the end, the current owner just wants to get rid of the boat, it is probably easier for him to drop the price a few hundred (or thousand) dollars than to arrange work & repairs.

[Pblais]

You are going to be in a negotiation so you have to be prepared to show all the defects and discuss the importance of each in an informed manner calmly and being the great person you are.

In the end you want a straight up deal. You basically made an offer that you both agreed to so now you want to revisit the deal. You bear a bit of the burden of being the nicer guy. It does not mean you can't ask for everything due you, but it's a lot easier for him to say no and let you walk away if you sound unrealistic and rant about the boat. You expect him to move towards your favor so it may seem silly but being nice matters.

Ideally you want to close the deal so forget about the seller fixing anything complicated and time consuming. Drawing out the close of the sale is not in your best interest. It's not a situation you can manage nor force to closure. It really is all about the money so don't make the seller lose money on the sale, have to go through a lot of work, and take a long time to close the sale. It's not a good deal for them either.

You need to decide how much more the whole boat is worth fixed. Include things you would do yourself then include extras liker maybe new fenders and other gear you will have to buy (there is a lot!). Get a grip on your additional costs no matter if you think he should pay or you should pay. For all complex work you want it done to your satisfaction so expect to do it or pay for it yourself (using money he reduces from the price). You really need to know the limit of your money and expenses.

You are attempting to find out if your paying more is worth it or would you be better off walking away now. Then the bigger question is can you afford it? Be realistic. At some point what you want to do is make a list and present it then decide if splitting it down the middle is fair or what it takes to make your deal work for you. Ideally you need to show the seller you are being a reasonable person and you are not just attempting to beat him up. At that point he will see that the next guy may not be so nice and that after it is all over it is a fair deal and he can close the deal right now! Structure the offer so the seller can just be done! That is worth money in your favor so don't ignore that side of it. If you want a lot of money back then let him know the deal is done right then if he accepts.

The number one thing is walk away if you can't afford the boat. If you can't walk away then you can't negotiate. Don't fall in love until the deal is over. Then come back to the forum and we can help you work out your problems. I really hope you can make the deal work.

[JohnWms]

Any 25 year old boat is a fixer-upper. I have a 1981 34' C&C and am very happy with it. I've had it 4 years and am just now getting to the point of normal, ongoing maintenance. The first three years were spent fixing something that was busted because it was old or replacing something that needed upgrading, again because it was old. I'm in the Pacific northwest where the boat's in the water all year and was able to work on it quite a lot.

My surveyor's list was considerably smaller than yours but there were still a LOT of things that needed doing. As noted above if the hull is sound you at least have time to plan.

Bottom line - that boat, with that list, should be in the high $20s. Maybe a bit more if there is any semi-modern gear aboard. (C&C 34s on YachtWorld right now range from $55k to $25k.)

In case you don't already know there are a couple of great places on the web for C&C info. C&C Yachts - C&C Photo Album & Resource Center and Wally Bryant - k/c Stella Blue, s/v Stella Blue. The "Photo Album" has more links and a great collection of original sales brochures.

I'm also blogging a bit about my boat at Scamper. Not nearly to the quality and extent that Wally Bryant is, however.

[Weyalan]

Despite what Paul says, it is my understanding that the price agreed prior to purchase is always negotiable subject to the results of the survey (unless all the deficiencies were brought to your attention, up front, prior to the price being agreed).

Realistically, though, you have to keep in mind that the boat is 25 years old and as such, your expectations about the condition of the boat have to be realistic. For example, I would expect to have to replace 25 year old wiring, so wouldn't be haggling on the price over that. I would not, however expect to have seized-up seak-cocks and would expect to negotiate a reduction in purchase price commensurate with replacing them.

[Thermal]

I second Weyalan's suggestion that you negotiate a price reduction on what it takes to fix this stuff; You want to be in control of how and by whom the repairs get done. One would assume you negotiated the "pre survey" price based on the condition of the boat and the defects that you saw at the time, and no doubt used those to justify your position, and that these defects the suveyor were unknown at the time. Exceptions to this would be things that can get you into legal trouble right away - like the problem with pumpout, the thru-hulls, and the CNG IF it is indeed actually propane. The first can give you problems w/ the coast guard, the other two with the laws of physics!

[Sailormann]

My Two Cents....

Shower pump is broken... cause not known. (sellers responsibility)

Not a huge issue

Head and pump-out piping is old, and will likely have issues this season. (buyer responsibility... upgrade?).

Normal for this age boat

1 deck fitting has been leaking... core wet in small area around it. (Buyer responsibility, but discount on price?)

Find out when the deck fittings were last rebedded. If they have not been done - there is likely to be delamination elsewhere too. I say this because the owner who has allowed a leak to develop, and is comfortable selling a boat with a leak, probably has not spent a lot of time on preventive maintenance. This is a time-consuming, messy and major repair if the delamination is extensive. You can do it yourself, if you have experience working with glass. If not - you run the risk of investing a lot of money in materials only to end up with a big mess.

Sea-cocks frozen (seller responsibility).

This goes hand-in-hand with the keel issue - see below.

Keel has delaminated, however surveyor says it is still very strong, and not deforming. (Buyer responsiblity in future, price discount? How much?)

Again, this tells you that the boat has not been maintained. I am not sure where you are - or what the weather was like when the survey was done. If it was cold, and the deck has water in it, it might have been frozen inside. It is difficult to tell how extensive delamination is in those conditions. Ditto the keel. The thing to be most concerned about on this boat is the hull itself. C&C 34's were built with cored hulls. There is a layer of balsa between the inner and outer layers of fibreglass. If this core is in perfect condition, then it is a great thing, strengthens and insulates the boat. BUT, if the core is wet, then you basically have two very thin fibreglass layers on each side of some rotten cellulose fibre.

Personally - I would walk from the boat. At the very least, I would get an additional survey done. This is not to suggest that the surveyor you used is anything less than competent, but you really want to be careful. Trying to fix a cored hull is extremely expensive - you are basically rebuilding the boat.

I would suggest that you ask around to find out who the best boatyard in the area is, call their service supervisor and ask him/her who they would hire to survey a boat they wanted to buy. If you are really, really in love with the boat, then bring that surveyor in for a second opinion but still be prepared to walk away.

CNG system not up to code, for insurance. (Buyer responsibility).

This is standard. Most boats are using propane now. Installing propane will run about 750, plus cost of conversion kit (if available) for the stove.

Shaft bearing needs replacing (seller responsibility).

Again - indicates lack of maintenance.

120v Electrical system not to code (Buyer responsibility?)

Most boats are not up to code...code changes just about everytime ABYC meets


Not sure what you are offering, but you are looking at a minimum of 8,000 and probably closer to 10,000 to have everything fixed...if the hull is pooched, tack on at least another 20,000. So look at the other C&C 34's on the market and see what they are selling for. Remember to discount the asking prices by about 20 to 25%, then deduct 10,000 from that price. That is what you should be paying.

Good luck !

[MysticGringo]

Wow... thanks everyone for your help... and advice.

I owe everyone an appology... when I first wrote this, I was working on a deadline, with little sleep... and mixed two words up. Its the rudder which has delaminated, and not the keel. Again... sorry to have caused so many responses about the wrong thing. You know... just typing away without thinking. And, before anybody says it... yes I do know the difference between rudder and keel... so no comments about "well, if you can't tell the difference between a rudder and a keel..."

I do agree with much of everything said... and I have made spreadsheets like a mad man for the last 6 or 7 months now. I even have a spreadsheet of all my spreadsheets. The 3 biggest ones are about which boat, where I listed all the boats in my price-range... and analysed every one of them... which is how I fell onto C&C for my needs. Then I have one comparing all the C&C34's with all the info, and such... which is how I made an offer on this one.

Now I have a spreadsheet showing all the cost impacts on the boat... loan, rate, insurance, upgrade, maintanence, repair work... all along with my money. So I have what I feel is a good grip on the elements in play, and will not get myself in a possition of over extension.

I agree that the negotiations are still on-going. The "first round" was simply establishing the field of play... now once both the seller and I understand all the factors (after the survey), then we can really begin negotiations. I also agree with leaving emotion out of negotiations. I never start a deal which I can't walk away from... if you can't walk away, then it will never work out for you. The power is with the buyer, as the seller needs the deal more than the buyer usually, and especially in the current economy.

A 25 year old boat is expected to have issues with it. Luckily I am pretty mechanically inclined... I won't get into the history of it all, but I am pretty good at figuring things out, given the right resources (which I have a huge Amazon bill thanks to all the boat books). Certain items ofcourse need correction... and I have put a budget together for those items based on books, internet, and correspondance with a few yards. The gas system is lsited as CNG... and has a bottle laying on its side. The surveyor was the one to tell me that it needs correction.

As for the deck... I was there when the surveyor ran the moisture meter over everything, so I saw how well he did... and he hit everything. There is about a 3" radius area around a small fitting which is wet. We put off the survey until the weather was warm (low temps over 35) for 2 or 3 days, to be sure any moisture was water, not ice. The surveyor did not have much concern about the deck area with the leak... and was sure it could be corrected simply.

The rudder (again... sorry for my brain-misfire) is something the surveyor said was fairly common, and he did not seem to ahve much concern here either. He had a similar model boat (a C&C 34, but fin-keel, not centerboard) to this (which is why I went with him). He said his had the same issue, and they drilled holes to drain it... and it never dried. They also never had issue with it since, even though it was delaminated, and wet.

John... it will be good to join the ranks of the C&C owners... if this is the right boat. I know it will take some effort to get her up to spec... which a large reason for my picking inside a certain price range, it will leave me with enough cash to spare in order to get that process moving substantially.

I really like the suggestions of negotiating price for correction of these issues, rather than having the seller do it. Only makes sense that they will do the most economic solution, rather than best solution. Nothing wrong with that either.

The boat has been really well taken care of. You can tell in alot of the smaller details, which is why I was so surprised at the deck fitting leak... it seems out of character with the rest of the boat. There are a few things done which I would have done differently... but that is always the case. The broker has known this boat for its entire lifetime... sold her new, and to each owner after. The surveyor was impressed with the condition of the boat... and thought it was in great condition, except for the few issues.

OK... so thats too long... enough from me. Again, sorry for my stupidity about the keel and rudder... getting old. And, thanks again to all of you... this little dream of mine has been YEARS in the making, and is by the longest planed thing I have ever done... and most research I have ever done. More than even when I was buying a house. You all have helped tremendiously.